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Author Topic: that setup for a long stretch race ?  (Read 1429 times)

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that setup for a long stretch race ?
« on: July 28, 2013, 04:32:01 am »
Hi guys. How many of us have the opportunity zilla drive around on the highway with the? it's really nice that someone with the acceleration monster almost everything smoke away! what's on the road so go ... their must see the bewildered faces of Porsche, and see the other sports car drivers, you would probably run for a week, laughing loudly through the area ... especially the stupid faces of sports car drivers have issued over € 100,000 for their car. yes is a beautiful thing. but when you leaves the gas are times you have to have the fear, the engine burns the ass. man may not perish but au to find useful setup for this type of drive that you may have to suffer a loss of power for it is already clear to me! maybe it works with 100 octane hpr pipe and silencer bored mikuni and a Power Valve block off? ... I ask you what would you do? greeting Frank +k2
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 06:18:51 am »
Are you having a stroke ? You sound like Yoda

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 06:24:21 am »
English isn't his primary language. Cut him some slack. -T
He wants to know what can be done to make a Zilla live for long/high speed running times.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 08:29:27 am »
When we raced a long distance event when pinned in 5th we'd hit the kill button for a couple to help keep it cooler.

I liked the choke hooked up to a 4 stroke decompression lever to enrichen it when WFO.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 11:27:26 am »
I mean what are you specially setup for the zilla , when you makes a long distance race ?
Pipes, jets , anything else ...?
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 11:38:56 am »
I think running a large bore two stroke at a set rpm for long times leads to detonation and possibly other problems. I could be wrong here, but i think i remember jerry hall telling me this once. That this is part of what led to the demise of the 2 stroke streetbikes.
Something about sustained high rpm running being an issue with detonation.
Maybe J.H. Could chime in about this?
If i was to set up a zilla for high speed riding. I.e.  running 60-80 mph for miles and miles, i would think that gearing the bike to run lower rpms could help.
I dont think spinning a zilla to 9k+ for extended times is a recipe for reliability

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2013, 01:38:20 pm »
The problem on the 2 smoke motor is sustained high speed high rpms at partial throttle.  Full throttle sustained high rpm is better than partial throttle.  It is very hard to set them up to not lean out at high rpm partial throttle.  Inherent issues with a 2 stroke.

If I wanted to run high speed for long periods.. use good gas.. jet main on the fat side. Perhaps use a tune on the fly dial a jet to richen on the fly. Run wide open not partial throttle. Consider a cooler plug. Gear it to run at max torques rpm vs max hp.   There may be better ways. But that is what I have done. Oh and mix oil at 20:1 or 24:1.   Dez would know the better tricks as he runs desert.  Only my .02 and thoughts
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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2013, 05:30:34 pm »
I'd try to keep the RPM's as low as possible, target your final drive ratio to your expected top speed (the speed you'll be running most often) so the engine is just barely getting on the pipe.
That'll give you the power to continue accelerating if need be, the ability to downshift and bring it way up into the powerband, while allowing the engine to cruise at a lower and healthier RPM.
The engine is put under much less stress when you're not peaking it out on the pipe, so wherever possible keep it down low and make use of the 500's torque instead.
If you're thinking that it's ridiculous to never get it way up on the pipe and push those high HP numbers...just keep in mind that endurance isn't about power output, it's about being able to cross the finish line.

Lowering compression will help longevity of an engine in demanding conditions.
Using a less restrictive stinger will also help to scavenge more heat out of the engine, at the expense of your pipe's state of tune.
A larger radiator would be a good idea, bring the temps even lower than what they're normally at.
Stock porting (or a mild port) that keeps as much of the sleeve intact will help with ring life.
All of these things traditionally lower the HP output of an engine, but that's the tradeoff between power and longevity.
Be sure to do all of the reliability mods like the RM bearing and thrust washers, welded ears, heavier clutch springs, etc. as well.


One of the most important things that I'm saving for last...oil ratio.
If you're going to be running for an extended time with lots of throttle, you need a lot of oil.
Consider going down to a 20:1 or 25:1 ratio to keep everything happy in there.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 10:13:35 pm »
A question to lowering the compression!
I install a 2 mm or more copper head gasket ?
Loss power at the lower rpm's , and this results a wider powerband ?
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 12:16:37 am »
The performance we were shooting for was for maximum reliability. The only modifications that I recall were a custom pipe &silencer, head mods, cyl stud upgrade, custom airbox with a trx250r filter. 19 hours 47 minutes the engine ran continuously. But this was 1991 so there wasn't special thrust washers/rm brg available yet.



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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 01:29:42 am »
A question to lowering the compression!
I install a 2 mm or more copper head gasket ?
Loss power at the lower rpm's , and this results a wider powerband ?

I'm not sure of the proper way to lower compression, but I would think that it requires modifications to the combustion chamber in the head as opposed to a simple spacer.
Using just a spacer might cause problems with the squish.
A copper head gasket might cause more headache than you want...they're impossibly hard to seal correctly.
If you have the combustion chamber in the head enlarged for lower compression, you would still be able to use a standard head gasket or have it O-ringed instead.

Lowering the compression would result in less power overall, and theoretically should be able to rev higher (but that's just one small factor in how high an engine can rev).
How it will affect the powerband is anyone's guess, it depends mostly on the rest of your setup and how it's all tuned.
The biggest benefit to lowering compression would be the added resistance to detonation and lower mean effective pressure, both adding longevity to the engine.
One added benefit...it'll be a little easier to start!

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 07:58:08 am »

I just noticed that you are attempting to use a power jet carburetor.  DO NOT USE THEM ON THE LT 500.  The power jet feature on the TM 38 makes the carburetor next to impossible to accurately tune at partial throttle.

Adding another head or base gasket to lower the compression is the WRONG approach!!!!!   The proper  piston to head clearance and squish shape is essential in preventing detonation REGARDLESS of the compression ratio, exhaust, or other engine specifications.

Below is my response I made to Frank in a Private Message.  Maybe others can benefit that have the same questions.




High performance 500cc single cylinder engine are most reliable when operated for brief periods of full throttle with a properly designed engine, with the correct exhaust system and a properly jetted carburetor.

Large two stroke cylinders do not scavenge properly at high RPM and partial throttle like when cruising down the Autobahn at 100 kph.  As the state of tune of the ports and exhaust system progresses in the direction for higher power levels, the possibility of detonation occurring at partial throttle increases dramatically. 

Carburetors can be jetted excessively rich for throttle positions below 1/2 throttle opening to minimize detonation occurring but increases fuel consumption, spark plug fouling and makes the engines run very rough when operating the engine in the RPM range and throttle position where the incomplete scavenging process and resulting detonation occurs.

I have had a lot of trouble with Paul Turner pipes and silencers burning pistons under wide open throttle operation.  The inside diameter of the outlet pipe on the tail cone of the main pipe body is too small and the aluminum muffler's inside diameter is also too small if the engine has been ported to the level of 55 to 60 HP or more. 

A Power Valve that is stuck in the open position can also contribute to burning pistons.

One of the symptoms of an exhaust system that has too small of an outlet is it will need to use a smaller main jets to prevent the engine from miss-firing at wide open throttle but will also increase piston crown temperatures to an unacceptable level.

Our HPR 19 pipe uses a larger outlet pipe and silencer inside diameter.


What year LT 500 is the TM 38 from?

If your TM 38 is from a 1987, there are modification that are required to make the carburetor work properly.

If you have a TM 38 from a 1988 to 1990 LT 500 I would use the following jets as a starting point if you are using the air box with the lid removed. 

420 to 450 main jet
If the lid is installed:   350 to 450 main jet depending on the exhaust used
22.5 to 27.5 pilot jet
389   R2 to R8 needle jet
6DK3  clip in 3rd or 4th position from the top
air screw 1 to 1 1/2 turns
4.0 slide.
air correction jet removed
3.5float valve

If you have the air box removed with a large high flow air filter set up you may need to go as large as a 660 main jet when running our exhaust system.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 10:16:48 am »
Just to ensure that everyone here is on the same page, our brother Frank here lives in Germany where he sometimes rides his LT-500R on the world famous Autobahn. Sustained high speed durability is what he is looking for in his ride.

In addition to the engine mods, I believe 15 / 38 sprockets might be beneficial to lower the RPM's. Perhaps even an '87 5th gear change would work as well.
Brian
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1987 Suzuki LT-500R
1990 Suzuki LT-500R
1982 Honda ATC-185S
1982 Honda ATC-250R

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2013, 06:15:59 am »
thanks God for jerry...and all the brothers here in the forum.
your willingness to help and the passion did exists in the forum.
 there is nothing in the world any other.

Ihave reinstalled the Powerjet,
and the main jet i change with 420
must drive with airbox lead,
Is just too loud without.
 For me and for all other neighborous and for the police :-)
I installed this at 7 clock in the Morning and take a ride aroud the Frankfurt city.
When the most Streets are empty.
My zilla runs a lot better.
but if I in gear disengagement the engine turns on ...
and I have to slow him down again with the clutch.
It isnt the trottle cable .
I must check the ignition system ?
Or the powervalve has any scratch ?

Thanks for the baja article  are very intrest for me.
More of this kind of stuff please i love the vintage of the zilla.
I like the stoey of people that have glory with thisold 2stroker quad...

El diablo must say i have 15 in Front and in the rear 35 teeth sprocket maybe i build me one wit
32 or 30 teeth. Or any body knows on this sprocket was installed on a other bike ?
My target is to drive in healthy rpm's 140 kmh on the Autobahn ;-)
FRANK....
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 07:07:46 am »
Frank I lived in kaiserslautern for two years used to go to Frankfurt every couple of weekends. Man I miss Germany and the autobahn. You have a beautiful country my man wish I would've stayed there when I out processed the Air Force.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2013, 07:36:23 am »
Hey Buckeye !
For the memories....
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2013, 08:25:44 am »
thanks God for jerry...and all the brothers here in the forum.
your willingness to help and the passion did exists in the forum.
 there is nothing in the world any other.

Ihave reinstalled the Powerjet,
and the main jet i change with 420
must drive with airbox lead,
Is just too loud without.
 For me and for all other neighborous and for the police :-)
I installed this at 7 clock in the Morning and take a ride aroud the Frankfurt city.
When the most Streets are empty.
My zilla runs a lot better.
but if I in gear disengagement the engine turns on ...
and I have to slow him down again with the clutch.
It isnt the trottle cable .
I must check the ignition system ?
Or the powervalve has any scratch ?

Thanks for the baja article  are very intrest for me.
More of this kind of stuff please i love the vintage of the zilla.
I like the stoey of people that have glory with thisold 2stroker quad...

El diablo must say i have 15 in Front and in the rear 35 teeth sprocket maybe i build me one wit
32 or 30 teeth. Or any body knows on this sprocket was installed on a other bike ?
My target is to drive in healthy rpm's 140 kmh on the Autobahn ;-)
FRANK....


It sounds like you have a very lean air fuel ratio at closed throttle. Remove the carburetor from the rubber reed intake manifold with the throttle cable still attached to the carburetor.  The throttle slide should not be open more than 2 mm or the engine will not come down to a low idle RPM.  If the slide has less than 2 mm of opening when the throttle is closed, make sure that you have installed the jets and needle that I recommended.  If you have all of the jets and needle I recommended, you have a air leak somewhere.  Look for leaking base gasket, reed gasket, bad crank seal or the engine cases are **** where they meet in the crankshaft area because of a prior broken piston or failed connecting rod bearing.


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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2013, 08:56:55 am »
Than you very mutch...
This saying makes the leak down test needles.
Ok give me on Day
And im back with good or bad news...
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2013, 10:47:00 am »
This is about all that I remember of Frankfurt:

Really cool terminal at the airport:






...and all the sweet guns people were carrying:







Wish I could have seen more of the place.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2013, 11:14:56 am »
Ooh i so sorry
I ve never seen tis gunny people
Hahaha O0 +k2
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2013, 02:55:07 pm »
I start the sesrch for the needle 6DK3
 look in the mikuni shops around and all what i found is a 6DH3?
Is this rename the needle ?
Can i use this as the same ?


In my mikuni is a 6DH2 allready installed.
Usefull?
Iwill take tomorrow a Testride .
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2013, 04:42:39 pm »
I start the sesrch for the needle 6DK3
 look in the mikuni shops around and all what i found is a 6DH3?
Is this rename the needle ?
Can i use this as the same ?



In my mikuni is a 6DH2 allready installed.
Usefull?
Iwill take tomorrow a Testride .



You will have to order the needle from a Suzuki dealer.  It is a proprietary needle that Mikuni makes for Suzuki and is not available through any other source but Suzuki.  The 6DK3 is the stock needle for the 1988 to 1990 LT 500.  It is the best needle I have found for the TM 38 on the LT 500.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2013, 06:08:43 am »
Sorry i haven't found anyone Dealer that can order needle 6DK3 in Germany    >:(

distance I have  controls 1,95 mm. I'm still down times .
i drive with speeds not exaggerate the engine comes down nicely,
but if i'turn about 4500 rpm it depends on his again.
Then I went back to my garage and looked helplessly at my engine,
I then discovered on both sides of the cylinder to the small drops coolant from the head gasket ....
I soon rushed out even with the part!
question for you do you know a good head gasket manufacturers for bore 87, 5? D?
under-steers is when you see the tree the goes in. overrides is when you hear the tree which you were going on.
"Walther Röhrl "

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2013, 09:02:29 am »
Honestly, your best option is to get the head o-ringed and eliminate the problem.

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Re: that setup for a long stretch race ?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2013, 09:07:43 am »
Did u torque the head nuts to 15lbs, then to 19 lbs final torque?
87 HPR LT500
04 Roll LOBO II TRX250R
06 LTR450
87 LT500
85 & 86 LT250
86 & 87 TRX250R
07 & 09 Husqvarna TE450
00 CR125R

 

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