I don't have enough info on the history of why a pipe shootout causes such a pissing match and don't care to. But i do know i would like more info on how the different pipes perform, especially on my Zilla. I do not live in CA, I am in Oregon, but i would volunteer my Zilla for a pipe comparison either at a dune location here in Oregon or a dyno. Small reed motor, 87mm piston, port work, have no idea the extent of the port work i bought the motor with the port work already done. Head is shaved to correct the squish, have a set of vforce two reeds in the works and working on getting my PWK 41mm dialed in. Currently have an LRD/LED pipe . I dont personally know any of the pipe builders I only know a few people from this site and I just met them last year at the NW Zillathon. Great people!! This site has been a great source of knowledge and info and can only hope that it can continue to be just that. Just my 

    Although friendly competition is always welcome, there doesn't have to be a pissing match. Although a pipe shootout sounds simple to do (and simpler to type), it almost always turns into a "builder shootout", "bike shootout", or "rider shootout". While it's true that a pipe is the other half of the engine equation, a good pipe will show improvements on just about any healthy well tuned engine. The pipes in question as related to this forum are not good pipes, they are exceptional pipes. I have seen most of these pipes in action & those that I haven't, I have heard 1st hand of how good they perform. I also believe that it's true when they say that a satisfied customer is a company's best salesman.

    Before I go any further, think about this comparison for a minute... If I buy a Cadillac & you buy a Lincoln and I tell you that my Caddy has more luxury than your Lincoln, am I supposed to expect you to trade your car for one like mine? Hell no! They are both good cars. But I bet that we both will tell the guy with the Honda looking to upgrade that both the big cars are 10X better than what he has now.

    With that being said, who is the target buyer for one of these elite pipes? If I had a DG pipe then I would definately want to see a graph that shows how much of an improvement this elite pipe has over my DG. But I don't have a DG. I have an HPR #19. So am I supposed to sell it because someone with another pipe says it may be better? Are the guys running an Aaen expected to sell theirs because someone else likes another builders pipe?  HELL NO! Because the guys that are running the Q, Hall, DCS, Aaen, (who am I forgetting here?) are not the target buyers. The guys with the PT, Bills, FMF, DG, etc are the ones that need the information so they can make an informed decision. 

    While I am personally all for putting up dyno graphs for information purposes only,  word of mouth does go a long way. The way I see it, out of everyone here on this forum, maybe 20% of the riders here have one of these custom pipes. These 20% need to enlighten the 80% out there that are using the stock or stock appearing pipes, rather than trying to convince the rest of the 20% that their pipe is below par. In other words, stop preaching to the choir & direct your attention to the assembly.

 

    Although friendly competition is always welcome, there doesn't have to be a pissing match. Although a pipe shootout sounds simple to do (and simpler to type), it almost always turns into a "builder shootout", "bike shootout", or "rider shootout". While it's true that a pipe is the other half of the engine equation, a good pipe will show improvements on just about any healthy well tuned engine. The pipes in question as related to this forum are not good pipes, they are exceptional pipes. I have seen most of these pipes in action & those that I haven't, I have heard 1st hand of how good they perform. I also believe that it's true when they say that a satisfied customer is a company's best salesman.

    Before I go any further, think about this comparison for a minute... If I buy a Cadillac & you buy a lincoln and I tell you that my Caddy has more luxury than your Lincoln, am I supposed to expect you to trade your car for one like mine? Hell no! They are both good cars. But I bet that we both will tell the guy with the Honda looking to upgrade that both the big cars are 10X better than what he has now.

    With that being said, who is the target buyer for one of these elite pipes? If I had a DG pipe then I would definately want to see a graph that shows how much of an improvement this elite pipe has over my DG. But I don't have a DG. I have an HPR #19. So am I supposed to sell it because someone with another pipe says it may be better? Are the guys running an Aaen expected to sell theirs because someone else likes another builders pipe?  HELL NO! Because the guys that are running the Q, Hall, DCS, Aaen, (who am I forgetting here?) are not the target buyers. The guys with the PT, Bills, FMF, DG, etc are the ones that need the information so they can make an informed decision. 

    While I am personally all for putting up dyno graphs for information purposes only,  word of mouth does go a long way. The way I see it, out of everyone here on this forum, maybe 20% of the riders here have one of these custom pipes. These 20% need to enlighten the 80% out there that are using the stock or stock appearing pipes, rather than trying to convince the rest of the 20% that their pipe is below par. In other words, stop preaching to the choir & direct your attention to the assembly.

 

well said

No Taco, only Cheese Burger and Pepsi!


Gotta Be an Old SNL fan to understand.....

    Although friendly competition is always welcome, there doesn't have to be a pissing match. Although a pipe shootout sounds simple to do (and simpler to type), it almost always turns into a "builder shootout", "bike shootout", or "rider shootout". While it's true that a pipe is the other half of the engine equation, a good pipe will show improvements on just about any healthy well tuned engine. The pipes in question as related to this forum are not good pipes, they are exceptional pipes. I have seen most of these pipes in action & those that I haven't, I have heard 1st hand of how good they perform. I also believe that it's true when they say that a satisfied customer is a company's best salesman.

    Before I go any further, think about this comparison for a minute... If I buy a Cadillac & you buy a lincoln and I tell you that my Caddy has more luxury than your Lincoln, am I supposed to expect you to trade your car for one like mine? Hell no! They are both good cars. But I bet that we both will tell the guy with the Honda looking to upgrade that both the big cars are 10X better than what he has now.

    With that being said, who is the target buyer for one of these elite pipes? If I had a DG pipe then I would definately want to see a graph that shows how much of an improvement this elite pipe has over my DG. But I don't have a DG. I have an HPR #19. So am I supposed to sell it because someone with another pipe says it may be better? Are the guys running an Aaen expected to sell theirs because someone else likes another builders pipe?  HELL NO! Because the guys that are running the Q, Hall, DCS, Aaen, (who am I forgetting here?) are not the target buyers. The guys with the PT, Bills, FMF, DG, etc are the ones that need the information so they can make an informed decision. 

    While I am personally all for putting up dyno graphs for information purposes only,  word of mouth does go a long way. The way I see it, out of everyone here on this forum, maybe 20% of the riders here have one of these custom pipes. These 20% need to enlighten the 80% out there that are using the stock or stock appearing pipes, rather than trying to convince the rest of the 20% that their pipe is below par. In other words, stop preaching to the choir & direct your attention to the assembly.

 

I will second the amen!!!
      I consider myself in that 80 % . I don't care who has the faster quad or who is the better rider or blah blah blah!! My offer still stands anyone in the Pacific NW want to do a comparison I am in !!

See to me the 80% needs to do there research i talked to every major builder in the game and settled on who i thought was the best for the job. To me customer service is 100% id rather sell my quad and buy a mountain bike then to deal with sonebody who doesnt give a f bout my quad or motor and just want my money. This goes for builders in general no matter what type of quad u have.

Seems like there is only one builder that doesnt want to show the graphs??

I have come to this site  like most people to learn from other Zilla enthusiasts.  To learn whats new, what works, what does not and what is best for my specific riding type.  Im out west where we have sand to play on and wide open desert.  I want a build with LEGGS.  I  have lived back east and there --I wanted a different set up.  I have been riding zillas since before most of you were born--yep--i am an old fart now. I bought it new in 88 and  I had my zilla built up decades ago with the technology of the day.  Then, I soon  had kids--had no more extra income for the zilla--now the kids are grown and Im looking at "todays technology" and will be doing a total restoration.  I have not focused on these sites much over the past years as I was enjoying what I had, so now I have much to learn from each of you.  That is why I come here.
 I have noticed that  there are many people here trying to sell their products and services.  That is perfectly OK by me.  I will be a buyer for some of those from some of you.  Im a marketing director so I say sell what you have, and make us the best products you can............. but, being an old fart and being around the block a few times, i also understand some have great products some may not.  Not every great product is great in every application.  Some test and design test design..some take what works and  copy and remarket what already works as another option.....Im NOT saying there is anything wrong with that either.   But personal attacks of another builder make me wonder why----would you spend your time going after a looser or focus on a leader???

As I get back into the zilla build, I. have been on a few sites I will give you my observations  and ramble on way way too much. I have a CT motor built long ago.  Allan at Ct is great. I have nothing to say negative and only possative.  I do however feel there is a lot more power to be had by those builders who have chosen to continue with passion current development on the zilla.  The two builders I am most interested in are Halls and .Q.  Now I am sure there are other FINE builders out there and on this site.  Im sure a good builder isnow saying what about me....  Its because I don't know who you are...and you are not talked about as much.

I have talked to both Q and Jerry and I am so impressed by both of them and both such nice guys that are making a living by making our beloved zillas better.  What drew me to Halls is he is active on this site and contributes so much here and the way people love his motors.  What drew me to seek out Dr.Q or RK is the way many of you trash talk him and try to bring him and his products down. It sparked my interest and I found everyone who has his products absolutly loves them too.  When your selling competative products you do not trash talk or target 3rd or 4th place guy.  You go after the leaders.  Its as if he has a target on his back.  That is what got me curious as to who this Dr.Q guy is and research what he has done in addition to what Jerry has done.  Do I think Q and Halls make the best pipes..yes I do.  But I think that because of what people who have tested them say and the feed back they give us.

I dont know who I will ultimatly have build ( or in my care REBUILD) my motor or to what extent.  Do I want to see a dyno of all pipes--sure I do. Will it give us real world answers--no-- but more data is always better.  Why does Q not want his graph shown...I dont know.  Perhaps he feels  he feels he has done a lot of work on development of his pipe and that it is the best and it will be coppied.  Perhaps because the pipe sucks and he doesnt want us to know iits junk.  If they suck he wont be selling many of the second run. But he sold his first batch fast.  But I think given how good his v1 or v1.1  was they must be pretty nice.  Do i think dynos are accurate--not really.  I have experience that the same dyno can vary a great deal on even back to back runs.  Mountain testing is great if you have the luxury of getting to ride every pipe or build. But how many of us will eve ever be that blessed. Dyno and mountain is the best of everything.  I could not look at a graph and say which is the best pipe for me.  I can tell you by a graph which makes the most power..by a graph I can tell you which one makes the power high or low...but a graph does not tell me which one will be the best dune play pipe pulling my 270 pound butt up the dunes rev out cleanly but not be so high strung that I cant effectivly PLAY vs Drag.  THEN HOW THE HELL ARE WE SUPPOSE TO KNOW WHAT WORKS GOOD IF WE CANT RIDE EVERYTHING BEFORE WE BUY.......THE ANSWER IS FROM EACH OTHER...WE RIDE WHAT WE HAVE AND TELL OTHERS WHAT WE THINK.  IF WE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH OTHER PIPES AND BUILDERS THAT WE CAN GIVE OUR COMPARISON.   That is exactly what I came to this site to hear......yet a few have done this but others attack their reviews and oppinions...Its obvious there are trust issues on this site....but that wont change....so we each take all the information we can get via dyno, mountain drags, word of mouth, smoke signals, etc....and we make our own decision and we respect someone elses decision that they felt was best for them....but personal attacks to sell your own stuff or to justify your own previous purchase decision does not help those who are hear to learn.

Ok you can all tell I am venting here....I come here to learn and to some extent be entertained but i do get tired of the trash talking with no productivity.  Dont sell me your product by trash talking the rest. That just makes me look harder at your target. Dr Q is cocky but he knows his ****, Jerry is equally skilled and not cocky. I guess i will toss a coin.

Those of you who are "haters"  dont ruin this great site for those of us who want to learn.  There is no such thing as one best pipe (for what application or)ore one best builder.  Your  local builder may be every single bit as good as those two i mentioned but just not be as good as marketing themselves. 

OK I have ranted enough.....I feel so much better...at my advanced age just typing that was a good workout now I need a nap.

PS.  I did decide of a builder for my shocks and Wayne of PEP set me up with some sick shocks...but boy oh boy did I have to wait a LONG time for them.

PSS.. for total disclosure I purchased one of the last Q 2.0 pipes he had I wont have a chance to run it until spring.  It may or may not be the best.... From what everyone said I felt the halls was better than the Q V1 and those who used the 2.0 liked it better than the V1 and said it hit harder and a little lower.  Given I am 6'5" and 270ish this appealed to me.  I viewed them both about equal in performance.  I chose the Q because of cost and the bling.  I personally dont like raw and 200 less  and no cost to make it shine was a deciding factor to me.  The porting, the carb mods, and the head mods.....I dont know who I will go with as Q is more expensive on those things.....decisions decisions decisions

So you guys can bash me because I steped over to the dark side.

 

with the knowledge of past "pipe shoot out" builder shoot out" topics could this have been a devious admin fishing trip? Spark spark hook line and hmmmm... Sensed the same with The fishy MHR topics? lol just food for thought?

with the knowledge of past "pipe shoot out" builder shoot out" topics could this have been a devious admin fishing trip? Spark spark hook line and hmmmm... Sensed the same with The fishy MHR topics? lol just food for thought?

talking about hitting the nail on the head, i think you on to something...

Here's what I've learned about people who ride quads...
Anyone that doesn't want dyno findings posted is trying to hide something.
Anyone that blindly defends a certain brand without proof just doesn't want to be proven wrong.
Anyone that takes every opportunity to throw insults at the other side, whether blatant or backhanded, is biased and can't be taken seriously.
None of the aforementioned people can carry out a civilized discussion without an attempt to convince others of their ideas and convictions.
If you don't fit into one of those categories, you're probably one of the ones that gets hounded by the above, either way...good for you.
If you feel like you fit into one of these categories and are unjustly portrayed, do something to change it.

That's all I feel like saying on the subject.

Here's what I've learned about people who ride quads...
Anyone that doesn't want dyno findings posted is trying to hide something.
Anyone that blindly defends a certain brand without proof just doesn't want to be proven wrong.
Anyone that takes every opportunity to throw insults at the other side, whether blatant or backhanded, is biased and can't be taken seriously.
None of the aforementioned people can carry out a civilized discussion without an attempt to convince others of their ideas and convictions.
If you don't fit into one of those categories, you're probably one of the ones that gets hounded by the above, either way...good for you.
If you feel like you fit into one of these categories and are unjustly portrayed, do something to change it.

That's all I feel like saying on the subject.

LIKE

Here's what I've learned about people who ride quads...
Anyone that doesn't want dyno findings posted is trying to hide something.
Anyone that blindly defends a certain brand without proof just doesn't want to be proven wrong.
Anyone that takes every opportunity to throw insults at the other side, whether blatant or backhanded, is biased and can't be taken seriously.
None of the aforementioned people can carry out a civilized discussion without an attempt to convince others of their ideas and convictions.
If you don't fit into one of those categories, you're probably one of the ones that gets hounded by the above, either way...good for you.
If you feel like you fit into one of these categories and are unjustly portrayed, do something to change it.

That's all I feel like saying on the subject.

Sounds alot like politics. Just a bunch of arguing and no forward motion.