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I don't have enough info on the history of why a pipe shootout causes such a pissing match and don't care to. But i do know i would like more info on how the different pipes perform, especially on my Zilla. I do not live in CA, I am in Oregon, but i would volunteer my Zilla for a pipe comparison either at a dune location here in Oregon or a dyno. Small reed motor, 87mm piston, port work, have no idea the extent of the port work i bought the motor with the port work already done. Head is shaved to correct the squish, have a set of vforce two reeds in the works and working on getting my PWK 41mm dialed in. Currently have an LRD/LED pipe . I dont personally know any of the pipe builders I only know a few people from this site and I just met them last year at the NW Zillathon. Great people!! This site has been a great source of knowledge and info and can only hope that it can continue to be just that. Just my
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It is silly. It is not too much to ask for a curve. Even if they race, there still needs to be dyno info so consumers can pick the pipe that best fits their needs. Not everyone's goal is to have the fastest bike on the hill. None of the pipes in question suck.
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Although friendly competition is always welcome, there doesn't have to be a pissing match. Although a pipe shootout sounds simple to do (and simpler to type), it almost always turns into a "builder shootout", "bike shootout", or "rider shootout". While it's true that a pipe is the other half of the engine equation, a good pipe will show improvements on just about any healthy well tuned engine. The pipes in question as related to this forum are not good pipes, they are exceptional pipes. I have seen most of these pipes in action & those that I haven't, I have heard 1st hand of how good they perform. I also believe that it's true when they say that a satisfied customer is a company's best salesman.
Before I go any further, think about this comparison for a minute... If I buy a Cadillac & you buy a Lincoln and I tell you that my Caddy has more luxury than your Lincoln, am I supposed to expect you to trade your car for one like mine? Hell no! They are both good cars. But I bet that we both will tell the guy with the Honda looking to upgrade that both the big cars are 10X better than what he has now.
With that being said, who is the target buyer for one of these elite pipes? If I had a DG pipe then I would definately want to see a graph that shows how much of an improvement this elite pipe has over my DG. But I don't have a DG. I have an HPR #19. So am I supposed to sell it because someone with another pipe says it may be better? Are the guys running an Aaen expected to sell theirs because someone else likes another builders pipe? HELL NO! Because the guys that are running the Q, Hall, DCS, Aaen, (who am I forgetting here?) are not the target buyers. The guys with the PT, Bills, FMF, DG, etc are the ones that need the information so they can make an informed decision.
While I am personally all for putting up dyno graphs for information purposes only, word of mouth does go a long way. The way I see it, out of everyone here on this forum, maybe 20% of the riders here have one of these custom pipes. These 20% need to enlighten the 80% out there that are using the stock or stock appearing pipes, rather than trying to convince the rest of the 20% that their pipe is below par. In other words, stop preaching to the choir & direct your attention to the assembly.
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Can a Quadracer Brother Get An Amen!
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Although friendly competition is always welcome, there doesn't have to be a pissing match. Although a pipe shootout sounds simple to do (and simpler to type), it almost always turns into a "builder shootout", "bike shootout", or "rider shootout". While it's true that a pipe is the other half of the engine equation, a good pipe will show improvements on just about any healthy well tuned engine. The pipes in question as related to this forum are not good pipes, they are exceptional pipes. I have seen most of these pipes in action & those that I haven't, I have heard 1st hand of how good they perform. I also believe that it's true when they say that a satisfied customer is a company's best salesman.
Before I go any further, think about this comparison for a minute... If I buy a Cadillac & you buy a lincoln and I tell you that my Caddy has more luxury than your Lincoln, am I supposed to expect you to trade your car for one like mine? Hell no! They are both good cars. But I bet that we both will tell the guy with the Honda looking to upgrade that both the big cars are 10X better than what he has now.
With that being said, who is the target buyer for one of these elite pipes? If I had a DG pipe then I would definately want to see a graph that shows how much of an improvement this elite pipe has over my DG. But I don't have a DG. I have an HPR #19. So am I supposed to sell it because someone with another pipe says it may be better? Are the guys running an Aaen expected to sell theirs because someone else likes another builders pipe? HELL NO! Because the guys that are running the Q, Hall, DCS, Aaen, (who am I forgetting here?) are not the target buyers. The guys with the PT, Bills, FMF, DG, etc are the ones that need the information so they can make an informed decision.
While I am personally all for putting up dyno graphs for information purposes only, word of mouth does go a long way. The way I see it, out of everyone here on this forum, maybe 20% of the riders here have one of these custom pipes. These 20% need to enlighten the 80% out there that are using the stock or stock appearing pipes, rather than trying to convince the rest of the 20% that their pipe is below par. In other words, stop preaching to the choir & direct your attention to the assembly.
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I have no opinion other than the donation of my professional services of expert throttle jockey. I will be unbiased and promise to **** all machines and pipes equally during any racing shootouts (although I think its gonna have to be the Pipe Olympics to make everyone happy). All I ask in return is a bag of tacos from Mitch's "go to" taco stand.
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No Taco, only Cheese Burger and Pepsi!
Gotta Be an Old SNL fan to understand..... -
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ehhh, I can get a good cheese burger over here.
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Although friendly competition is always welcome, there doesn't have to be a pissing match. Although a pipe shootout sounds simple to do (and simpler to type), it almost always turns into a "builder shootout", "bike shootout", or "rider shootout". While it's true that a pipe is the other half of the engine equation, a good pipe will show improvements on just about any healthy well tuned engine. The pipes in question as related to this forum are not good pipes, they are exceptional pipes. I have seen most of these pipes in action & those that I haven't, I have heard 1st hand of how good they perform. I also believe that it's true when they say that a satisfied customer is a company's best salesman.
Before I go any further, think about this comparison for a minute... If I buy a Cadillac & you buy a lincoln and I tell you that my Caddy has more luxury than your Lincoln, am I supposed to expect you to trade your car for one like mine? Hell no! They are both good cars. But I bet that we both will tell the guy with the Honda looking to upgrade that both the big cars are 10X better than what he has now.
With that being said, who is the target buyer for one of these elite pipes? If I had a DG pipe then I would definately want to see a graph that shows how much of an improvement this elite pipe has over my DG. But I don't have a DG. I have an HPR #19. So am I supposed to sell it because someone with another pipe says it may be better? Are the guys running an Aaen expected to sell theirs because someone else likes another builders pipe? HELL NO! Because the guys that are running the Q, Hall, DCS, Aaen, (who am I forgetting here?) are not the target buyers. The guys with the PT, Bills, FMF, DG, etc are the ones that need the information so they can make an informed decision.
While I am personally all for putting up dyno graphs for information purposes only, word of mouth does go a long way. The way I see it, out of everyone here on this forum, maybe 20% of the riders here have one of these custom pipes. These 20% need to enlighten the 80% out there that are using the stock or stock appearing pipes, rather than trying to convince the rest of the 20% that their pipe is below par. In other words, stop preaching to the choir & direct your attention to the assembly.
I will second the amen!!!
I consider myself in that 80 % . I don't care who has the faster quad or who is the better rider or blah blah blah!! My offer still stands anyone in the Pacific NW want to do a comparison I am in !! -
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All I can say is that as someone who is currently shopping for a crem-del-la-crem pipe seeing a dyno graph is useful information. Along with current owner reviews. The builders of pipes that are willing to show there pipe on a dyno and what it's potential can be are the ones earning my attention and in the end will likely earn my business and my money. These pipes aren't selling for $300 they're a decent chunk of change and probably the most important perfomance mod anyone will make to their machine.
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See to me the 80% needs to do there research i talked to every major builder in the game and settled on who i thought was the best for the job. To me customer service is 100% id rather sell my quad and buy a mountain bike then to deal with sonebody who doesnt give a f bout my quad or motor and just want my money. This goes for builders in general no matter what type of quad u have.
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I think everyone has valid points and just my .02 here, but I think to have any useful graph's to determine where in the powerband the most power is being made, the hp, torque etc that it would have to be similar to how you test power making combo's in a car on a dyno. I say "power making combo" because, correct me if I'm wrong here, but each of these exceptional pipes require different engine setups to work to their full potential.
I know not everyone is a car guy, but for example, I am not going to run a 2500 rpm stall converter in my race car with an engine setup to make all the power after 4500 rpms, just like I wouldn't use a dual plane manifold when a single plane is better suited, so I certainly see the issue with running all pipes on the same bike to graph out. But as I said, treat it like dynoing power combo's in a car. Use the same bike and change out the top ends, carbs, etc to what each builder specifies, have them tune, jet etc to optimal setup and run it 3 or 4 times, disassemble and then the next builder installs their setup, tune, run, and so on. I know that would certainly take some time and you still have a lot of variables, but I don't see another way to keep it as comparable.
Plus I don't personally see it as who has the best, but really more of where the power comes on in each one. I wouldn't want a setup that makes all the power in the top end when all I want to do is rip around or have a low end grunt pipe when I want to drag race all day (I'm too old for that now)
Having said all that, I joined here and other sites to learn everything I can and also, to help others in their quest to make their machines better with any info I can provide, regardless if I learned it from here, another site or my own personal experience. I am thankful that I have gained a few friends and riden with some on here as well.
I don't think there is any real solution, I think each builder has spent a lot of time and money and each pipe is exceptional in what it was designed to do. I just appreciate the fact that there are people that are still busting their butt and continue to come up with new performance parts, be it pipes, machining, o-ringing, rebuilding shocks, billet washers, hybrid kits, and on and on.
If you think about it, we all are on the same team......we all love blue and yellow and were always trying to make them better
Bottom line is...and this is coming from a rookie poster with all of about 50 some posts so it may not mean much or carry any weight, but I appreciate what you ALL do for the sport! -
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Seems like there is only one builder that doesnt want to show the graphs??
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I have owned my Zilla since July '12, so I didn't see a lot of the rift between certain entities on the old site. So when I seen the DCS dyno graph on atvhq I could make a decision based on something (someone claimed the info bogus) rather than a seat of the pants observation. Now I have a second Zilla that needs a pipe. If I wanted info to compare the V2 against the DCS, that wouldn't happen since there isn't anything. I would like to see who's pipe hits earlier, where they make the best power/over rev and when it falls off.
So I would have to find someone with a v2/ halls out at the dunes to ask if I could take a test ride. I'm sure there are cool people out there that would say sure take a spin. Then again I'm sure some would say go pound sand... Who the F are you.
Dyno info shouldn't be a mystery, transparency would be a benefit. iMHO
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I have come to this site like most people to learn from other Zilla enthusiasts. To learn whats new, what works, what does not and what is best for my specific riding type. Im out west where we have sand to play on and wide open desert. I want a build with LEGGS. I have lived back east and there --I wanted a different set up. I have been riding zillas since before most of you were born--yep--i am an old fart now. I bought it new in 88 and I had my zilla built up decades ago with the technology of the day. Then, I soon had kids--had no more extra income for the zilla--now the kids are grown and Im looking at "todays technology" and will be doing a total restoration. I have not focused on these sites much over the past years as I was enjoying what I had, so now I have much to learn from each of you. That is why I come here.
I have noticed that there are many people here trying to sell their products and services. That is perfectly OK by me. I will be a buyer for some of those from some of you. Im a marketing director so I say sell what you have, and make us the best products you can............. but, being an old fart and being around the block a few times, i also understand some have great products some may not. Not every great product is great in every application. Some test and design test design..some take what works and copy and remarket what already works as another option.....Im NOT saying there is anything wrong with that either. But personal attacks of another builder make me wonder why----would you spend your time going after a looser or focus on a leader???
As I get back into the zilla build, I. have been on a few sites I will give you my observations and ramble on way way too much. I have a CT motor built long ago. Allan at Ct is great. I have nothing to say negative and only possative. I do however feel there is a lot more power to be had by those builders who have chosen to continue with passion current development on the zilla. The two builders I am most interested in are Halls and .Q. Now I am sure there are other FINE builders out there and on this site. Im sure a good builder isnow saying what about me.... Its because I don't know who you are...and you are not talked about as much.
I have talked to both Q and Jerry and I am so impressed by both of them and both such nice guys that are making a living by making our beloved zillas better. What drew me to Halls is he is active on this site and contributes so much here and the way people love his motors. What drew me to seek out Dr.Q or RK is the way many of you trash talk him and try to bring him and his products down. It sparked my interest and I found everyone who has his products absolutly loves them too. When your selling competative products you do not trash talk or target 3rd or 4th place guy. You go after the leaders. Its as if he has a target on his back. That is what got me curious as to who this Dr.Q guy is and research what he has done in addition to what Jerry has done. Do I think Q and Halls make the best pipes..yes I do. But I think that because of what people who have tested them say and the feed back they give us.
I dont know who I will ultimatly have build ( or in my care REBUILD) my motor or to what extent. Do I want to see a dyno of all pipes--sure I do. Will it give us real world answers--no-- but more data is always better. Why does Q not want his graph shown...I dont know. Perhaps he feels he feels he has done a lot of work on development of his pipe and that it is the best and it will be coppied. Perhaps because the pipe sucks and he doesnt want us to know iits junk. If they suck he wont be selling many of the second run. But he sold his first batch fast. But I think given how good his v1 or v1.1 was they must be pretty nice. Do i think dynos are accurate--not really. I have experience that the same dyno can vary a great deal on even back to back runs. Mountain testing is great if you have the luxury of getting to ride every pipe or build. But how many of us will eve ever be that blessed. Dyno and mountain is the best of everything. I could not look at a graph and say which is the best pipe for me. I can tell you by a graph which makes the most power..by a graph I can tell you which one makes the power high or low...but a graph does not tell me which one will be the best dune play pipe pulling my 270 pound butt up the dunes rev out cleanly but not be so high strung that I cant effectivly PLAY vs Drag. THEN HOW THE HELL ARE WE SUPPOSE TO KNOW WHAT WORKS GOOD IF WE CANT RIDE EVERYTHING BEFORE WE BUY.......THE ANSWER IS FROM EACH OTHER...WE RIDE WHAT WE HAVE AND TELL OTHERS WHAT WE THINK. IF WE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH OTHER PIPES AND BUILDERS THAT WE CAN GIVE OUR COMPARISON. That is exactly what I came to this site to hear......yet a few have done this but others attack their reviews and oppinions...Its obvious there are trust issues on this site....but that wont change....so we each take all the information we can get via dyno, mountain drags, word of mouth, smoke signals, etc....and we make our own decision and we respect someone elses decision that they felt was best for them....but personal attacks to sell your own stuff or to justify your own previous purchase decision does not help those who are hear to learn.
Ok you can all tell I am venting here....I come here to learn and to some extent be entertained but i do get tired of the trash talking with no productivity. Dont sell me your product by trash talking the rest. That just makes me look harder at your target. Dr Q is cocky but he knows his ****, Jerry is equally skilled and not cocky. I guess i will toss a coin.
Those of you who are "haters" dont ruin this great site for those of us who want to learn. There is no such thing as one best pipe (for what application or)ore one best builder. Your local builder may be every single bit as good as those two i mentioned but just not be as good as marketing themselves.
OK I have ranted enough.....I feel so much better...at my advanced age just typing that was a good workout now I need a nap.
PS. I did decide of a builder for my shocks and Wayne of PEP set me up with some sick shocks...but boy oh boy did I have to wait a LONG time for them.
PSS.. for total disclosure I purchased one of the last Q 2.0 pipes he had I wont have a chance to run it until spring. It may or may not be the best.... From what everyone said I felt the halls was better than the Q V1 and those who used the 2.0 liked it better than the V1 and said it hit harder and a little lower. Given I am 6'5" and 270ish this appealed to me. I viewed them both about equal in performance. I chose the Q because of cost and the bling. I personally dont like raw and 200 less and no cost to make it shine was a deciding factor to me. The porting, the carb mods, and the head mods.....I dont know who I will go with as Q is more expensive on those things.....decisions decisions decisions
So you guys can bash me because I steped over to the dark side.
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OMG this is way to much to read.....lets race
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with the knowledge of past "pipe shoot out" builder shoot out" topics could this have been a devious admin fishing trip?
Spark spark hook line and hmmmm... Sensed the same with The fishy MHR topics? lol just food for thought?
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I owe everyone who took the time to read my rant.....a drink or two
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with the knowledge of past "pipe shoot out" builder shoot out" topics could this have been a devious admin fishing trip?
Spark spark hook line and hmmmm... Sensed the same with The fishy MHR topics? lol just food for thought?
talking about hitting the nail on the head, i think you on to something...
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1 or 2??? Think 3!!! My beers warm now!!
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Here's what I've learned about people who ride quads...
Anyone that doesn't want dyno findings posted is trying to hide something.
Anyone that blindly defends a certain brand without proof just doesn't want to be proven wrong.
Anyone that takes every opportunity to throw insults at the other side, whether blatant or backhanded, is biased and can't be taken seriously.
None of the aforementioned people can carry out a civilized discussion without an attempt to convince others of their ideas and convictions.
If you don't fit into one of those categories, you're probably one of the ones that gets hounded by the above, either way...good for you.
If you feel like you fit into one of these categories and are unjustly portrayed, do something to change it.
That's all I feel like saying on the subject. -
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glad I own a 250 but that deal on zillas is almost to good to pass up... buy 1 get free drama
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Here's what I've learned about people who ride quads...
LIKE
Anyone that doesn't want dyno findings posted is trying to hide something.
Anyone that blindly defends a certain brand without proof just doesn't want to be proven wrong.
Anyone that takes every opportunity to throw insults at the other side, whether blatant or backhanded, is biased and can't be taken seriously.
None of the aforementioned people can carry out a civilized discussion without an attempt to convince others of their ideas and convictions.
If you don't fit into one of those categories, you're probably one of the ones that gets hounded by the above, either way...good for you.
If you feel like you fit into one of these categories and are unjustly portrayed, do something to change it.
That's all I feel like saying on the subject. -
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glad I own a 250 but that deal on zillas is almost to good to pass up... buy 1 get free drama
I'm kinda with you on the 250's, I've had a lot more fun with them than 500's or hybrids.
...and it's so much funner to beat a zilla, or any quad for that matter, on a 250. -
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Here's what I've learned about people who ride quads...
Anyone that doesn't want dyno findings posted is trying to hide something.
Anyone that blindly defends a certain brand without proof just doesn't want to be proven wrong.
Anyone that takes every opportunity to throw insults at the other side, whether blatant or backhanded, is biased and can't be taken seriously.
None of the aforementioned people can carry out a civilized discussion without an attempt to convince others of their ideas and convictions.
If you don't fit into one of those categories, you're probably one of the ones that gets hounded by the above, either way...good for you.
If you feel like you fit into one of these categories and are unjustly portrayed, do something to change it.
That's all I feel like saying on the subject.
Sounds alot like politics. Just a bunch of arguing and no forward motion. -