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Author Topic: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation  (Read 997 times)

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i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« on: September 06, 2013, 04:58:13 am »
As i have been  reading,searching  for all the information i can find about this quad and its problems,strong points,unique character. I am really curious about the 93 or 110 gas situation. What i want to know is why cant i run 93 pump mixed 32:1 and have to re-jet every time i go to get more gas? i  read that the jetting will be off because of the ethanol in the gas but wouldnt you have to do that with 110 too? and if  this is a problem  what mods are there out there that people do to the carbs in order to run 93 pump  32:1 and not have to mix  or run higher octane?

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 05:08:13 am »
I think people make it out to be a bigger problem than it really is. I run 110 just because it's available near me.

If I had to run premium, I would have my head rechambered by a builder to be in a safe octane range for pump gas and ride it. That's my  2c
Ain't ever seen it......but I have heard it.

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 05:10:22 am »
It has to do with the design of the head.  I run 93 in my 500 and haven't had a problem.  I have a custom dome matched to the piston and it's been ported.  Always run the lowest octane required for your quad, otherwise you are pissing away money and losing power due to less energy in the fuel.

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2013, 06:40:52 am »
thanks for clearing that up for me i have another question can someone give me a comparison of the 87 a arms and the 88+ a arms trying to  see what yr this quadzilla is without going to look at it in person

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2013, 07:02:08 am »
It has to do with the design of the head.  I run 93 in my 500 and haven't had a problem.  I have a custom dome matched to the piston and it's been ported.  Always run the lowest octane required for your quad, otherwise you are pissing away money and losing power due to less energy in the fuel.


High octane fuel has more resistance to detonation.  If you put high octane fuel in your engine and it makes more power it was because your engine was not jetted properly or was having a detonation problem.  High octane fuel DOES NOT necessarily have more energy in it.  Gasoline's energy content should be in the range of 17,000 to 20,000 BTU per pound, anything outside of this range cannot be called gasloline.

Your engine build specifications is what makes an engine produce more power not the fuel that is run.  The majority of the high performance engine builds require higher octane fuel to protect the engine from detonation.

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2013, 07:17:15 am »
87's have one bolt holding the upper A-arm in place, 88-90's have two bolts holding the upper A-arm to the frame.

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2013, 07:36:45 am »
87's have one bolt holding the upper A-arm in place, 88-90's have two bolts holding the upper A-arm to the frame.

Twin? LOLWUT?

Warmeck to answer the part about jetting,  race fuel or avgas are consistent year-round.   While pump gas can vary.

I run race fuel for the exact reason motorgeek stated.  For both consistency and to protect my expensive motor from detonation.

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2013, 07:40:44 am »
Look at post #4, he asked how to i.d. The difference between an 87 & an 88-90 by looking at the A-arms.

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2013, 07:43:14 am »
As i have been  reading,searching  for all the information i can find about this quad and its problems,strong points,unique character. I am really curious about the 93 or 110 gas situation. What i want to know is why cant i run 93 pump mixed 32:1 and have to re-jet every time i go to get more gas? i  read that the jetting will be off because of the ethanol in the gas but wouldnt you have to do that with 110 too? and if  this is a problem  what mods are there out there that people do to the carbs in order to run 93 pump  32:1 and not have to mix  or run higher octane?

The reason for that is because the ethanol content in pump gas varies widely from station to station and load to load.
It may contain 10%, it may contain none, or a percentage of that...but they're under no obligation to tell you, nor do they even know.
Since ethanol has a different stoichiometric ratio than gasoline, the stoichiometric ratio of the gas you're burning changes too.
When the stoichiometric ratio changes, you can melt pistons, overheat, induce detonation, etc.
110, or any race fuel for that matter, is CONSISTENT.
The difference is that companies like VP and Sunoco that charge ridiculous prices for their fuels have a reputation to uphold and their fuel quality has to reflect that.
If it was just a matter of getting lots and lots of octane ratings, they'd just dump a ton of tetraethyl lead into pump gas...but that's not why competitive teams use race fuels.
They use it because they can tune to the ragged edge of melting a piston, and know that future purchases will still be the same as before.

So....the only SAFE way to run pump gas with a stock head is by checking jetting every time you get new fuel.
Want to run any kind of **** gas from wherever?
Have you engine designed for it and don't expect lots of hp.
Or, run your engine without knowing for sure and gamble your engine's health.
You can't have both.
It would be awesome if you ran 93 octane for 100hrs before you needed a new top, but it would really suck if it only lasted a few weekends.
Factor the cost of a new top end and the extra cost of fuel and see if you think it's worth it to take a chance...it's your quad, not mine.

Nothing special needs to be done to the carb in order to run pump gas, other than jetting it, which is needed from time to time anyway.
It's only when you start getting into boring carbs for big engines and running alky before anything needs to be done to it.

The difference between 87 and 88+ a-arms is that the 87 has a single large pivot tube on the upper arm connecting it to the frame, while the 88+ has two smaller ends like what you see on most quads.
Therefore, one bolt holds the a-arm to the frame with the 87, and two bolts hold it on with the 88+

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2013, 07:47:52 am »
Look at post #4, he asked how to i.d. The difference between an 87 & an 88-90 by looking at the A-arms.

ha!
I skipped right over that.  What i saw was:

gas talk
gas talk
gas talk
a-arm bolts
gas talk

too much rum in my coffee this morning.  Happy friday!  D? [|]

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2013, 09:32:14 am »
thanks for the info guys i will have to get a video going of my quadzilla once its all tuned up and ready to go. i will be posting a rebuild thread soon to come! This is the only site i see  about lt500's that arent dead lol   +k2

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2013, 12:10:22 pm »
It has to do with the design of the head.  I run 93 in my 500 and haven't had a problem.  I have a custom dome matched to the piston and it's been ported.  Always run the lowest octane required for your quad, otherwise you are pissing away money and losing power due to less energy in the fuel.


High octane fuel has more resistance to detonation.  If you put high octane fuel in your engine and it makes more power it was because your engine was not jetted properly or was having a detonation problem.  High octane fuel DOES NOT necessarily have more energy in it.  Gasoline's energy content should be in the range of 17,000 to 20,000 BTU per pound, anything outside of this range cannot be called gasloline.

Your engine build specifications is what makes an engine produce more power not the fuel that is run.  The majority of the high performance engine builds require higher octane fuel to protect the engine from detonation.

hmmmmmmm

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2013, 04:30:41 pm »
my 500 detonated on Sunoco 110, my compression is sett up low, has around 152psi cranking comp with me kickin. it also has to do with how well your engine flows, if u have a good port pipe combo u can still detonate your engine with low compression and the squish being perfect.. im in a pissing match with the dealer of the 110 right now, I believe he cuts it with lower octane fuel (pg)

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Re: i am wondering about the whole pump gas situation
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2013, 08:29:02 pm »
The cranking compression has nothing to do with what octane fuel the engine needs.  The pressure in the cylinder near TDC or about the time spark needs to occur has a lot of influence, as well as a few other things, on what octane fuel your engine requires.  The temperature of the piston crown, the ground strap on the spark plug, the surfaces of the combustion chamber, and carbon deposits have an effect on what octane fuel your engine requires.

An engine with very high cranking compression with a lousy pipe and bad ports will often run detonation free on low octane fuel.  A highly developed engine and pipe with low cranking compression will most often require high octane fuel.

A low compression four stroke that was originally made to run on 87 octane fuel will require higher octane fuel as the intake manifold pressure is increased when a supercharger or turbocharger is added.  The temperatures of the mixture in the cylinder and pressure in the cylinder near TDC will increase as boost pressure is increased. 

I hope you can see the trend that it is density and temperature of the trapped mixture in the cylinder near TDC that has the largest influence on the engines octane requirements. 

I remember some of the first jet ski engines we modified in the mid to late 1970s had very crude ports and pipes.  We could run over 200 psi cranking pressure on 87 octane pump gas detonation free.  Our current 45 to 50 hp 125cc road racing engines with around 150 psi cranking pressure needs over 115 octane fuel to keep them detonation free.

The cylinder pressure near TDC on engines with poorly developed ports and pipe goes down as the engine RPM increases. 

The pressure in the cylinder near TDC on engines with highly developed ports and pipe goes up when the engine is in the RPM range where the ports and pipe are working together.  A  tuned pipe will actually charge the cylinder with more mixture than what the engine displacement could pump without the assistance of the pipe.  A supercharger or turbocharger also makes a engine consume more air than the engine's  displacement. 

 

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