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Author Topic: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R  (Read 24147 times)

Offline Rainman56

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Without getting too technical or giving away any info does anyone have an idea on why the dip on the Shearer pipes?Do the 500 pipes have the same dip and then comes back?Just curious is all as I have no clue when it comes to pipe design.
Can,t fix stupid.:)

Offline Maxxh2o

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Gillo do tell...

Offline Zilla273

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not sure why the dip is there but its anoying lol (pg) when your full bore its like you start pullin hard then it kinda feels as if u let off to 3/4 thottle for a sec, then it pulls again for a sec then shift then... u do it all over agian lol ::)

Offline Rainman56

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Any new developments on Jerry,s pipe?
Can,t fix stupid.:)

Offline MotorGeek - Jerry Hall

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Any new developments on Jerry,s pipe?

I have been wanting to test a FTZ pipe before doing anymore 250 pipe development.  I have located one and should have it in a couple of weeks.  Then we will resume with development.

**Edit 1 **

Without getting too technical or giving away any info does anyone have an idea on why the dip on the Shearer pipes?Do the 500 pipes have the same dip and then comes back?Just curious is all as I have no clue when it comes to pipe design.

Dips in the power curve are a result of something in the engine package not being "right".  Most of the time the dip occurs at a RPM where the pipe and the porting are not working together.

I have tried about 10 different porting combinations with the LT250 Shearer/Q pipe and I cannot help the dip and I cannot make the dip any worse.  I think that maybe the same error in theory, or same design formulas, or same error in testing or same software that was used on the Shearer/Q LT500 pipe was used on the LT250 pipe.  It appears the dip is not porting, reeds, cylinder head, ignition or air filter/intake design problem. 
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Offline Mitch Keller

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I ve seen similar results with the testing i have done. Now thats there's some actual data to compare, ill post up a couple graphs from the last time i had a 250 on the rollers. All dyno testing was done with a 92 small reed engine , 41.5 tm mikuni, v force 2 reeds on Heminutt's cylinder.

Red line is Ftz pipe
Blue line is Shearer/Q

Watch out Carl and Jerry, you might get someone spewing all over "You Tube" threads that you photo shopped your dyno results..............

F Mitch Keller

Offline All American

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2015, 12:35:42 pm »
Does anybody know if ftz can make a pipe for the 86' 250?
1-1985 SUZUKI LT250R
1-2013 HONDA TRX450ER

Offline Hotbutta

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2016, 10:13:47 am »
Jerry, is that 250 pipe ready? I have a candidate ?

Offline All American

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #158 on: January 12, 2016, 03:24:10 am »
I called FTZ out of Cape Giradeou, MO.  They told me they make a pipe for every year LT250R.
1-1985 SUZUKI LT250R
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Offline MotorGeek - Jerry Hall

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #159 on: February 24, 2017, 05:05:52 pm »

 When I worked for Team Kawasaki we traded bikes with Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha.  The Japanese companies did that because they knew that the competition was going to test each other's bikes.  To save money by not having to buy competitors bikes, the companies had an agreement with each other.  It went something like this.........We will loan you a KX125 if you will loan as one of your CR 125, YZ125, RM125.  We will loan you a KX250 if you will loan us a YZ250  and so on.  One of Kawasaki's buildings in Santa Anna was full of competitors street and dirt bikes.  At the end of the year or when the new models came out, they brought us a new bike and picked up their last years model.

Every american company that I know of, tests the competition's products. It is not about copying others products but knowing how your product compares to the competition.  When we developed our HPR19 pipe for the LT500, we tested competitors pipes and we continued our development until we believed that our pipe was substantially better than the competition's pipes, then we released our pipe.


We tested the FTZ inframe and the FTZ out of frame.  On our test engine, the in frame pipe worked the best.    The pipe LT250R development project has been on hold because I lost a key employee.  It will resume when I find a replacement for him or when I catch up on the mountain of work that is in the shop. 
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Offline Sublunacy

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2017, 10:51:01 am »
they need to test each others machines every year because they are sharing the market.
perhaps sharing the market should be a lesson.
1992 SUZUKI LT250R
,PSI,CEET,RAD
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Offline MotorGeek - Jerry Hall

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2017, 02:04:44 pm »
they need to test each others machines every year because they are sharing the market.
perhaps sharing the market should be a lesson.



It is the market (people who may buy your product) who determines a particular companies market share.  If your product is less than average your companies market share will probably be less than average.  If your product is head and shoulders above the competition you will probably monopolize the market unless the competition spends a lot of time and or money promoting/advertising their product. 

The old school method was to spend a lot of time and money developing a superior product and let satisfied customers promote your product by word of mouth.  Word of mouth promotion by satisfied customers takes a lot of time to reach every potential customer but most customers are already sold when they call, they just want to know how much and when can it be shipped.

It cost a lot of money to develop superior products.  It cost much less money to hire an advertising agency that can make an inferior product look superior to your competitors products.

In our current society, the majority of the potential customers do not spend enough time talking face to face with enough customers that have bought similar products from different manufacturers. Buyers remorse frequently happens after choosing and buying a sub-par product.   

Advertising agencies know the psychology of the impulsive buyers especially the group that has been labeled "millennials".  The millennials are huge targets because they are one of the largest group of our society that uses technology for almost everything in their lives.  The lack of face to face conversation, direct observation of the product performing or communicating by phone or emails with real individuals that have hands on experience with a product is the growing problem.  We do not know if all of the people we communicate with on forums and other social media are real consumers or paid cheer leaders promoting their clients products.

I talk to prospective customers of our products on the phone daily.  The phrase "I have been doing my research on your..............."  usually comes up in the first 15 seconds of the conversation.  I ask them a few questions and determine they really have not really done much research but are floating on the tide of popular opinion from social media.  The favorable opinion of my companies products is good for me but could result in buyers remorse for them. 

My advice before buying something for your quad or anything, is too take your time, know who your are talking to on social media,  believe only 10% of what is said or implied in radio, tv, printed advertisement and believe 5% of the product reviews in enthusiasts magazines.  I have never seen a magazine that does a product review on a product whose company is not a frequent advertiser with the publication. 

I am old school in product development and my ways of doing business.  I sleep well at night and have very few customers that have buyers remorse with my products. 


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Offline 98 LT250R Hybrid

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #162 on: February 25, 2017, 04:30:19 pm »
As of now I have an FMF pipe and silencer.  So what is the best moto cross pipe currently available for our quads?

**Edit 1 **

I'm looking for a moto-cross pipe.  Not a drag pipe.  Has Jerry made a 250 pipe yet?
1989 LT250R
2016 YFZ450R suspension, bead locks, gncc tires, white carbon fiber look plastic, motocross ported motor, decked for race gas, V-Force 3 reeds, 39mm PWK, Hinson clutch basket, FMF pipe and silencer.

Offline Sublunacy

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #163 on: February 27, 2017, 11:36:15 pm »
I'm looking for a moto-cross pipe.  Not a drag pipe.  Has Jerry made a 250 pipe yet?


to answer your question the paul turner is a motox pipe with no powerband like the fmf.

if what you want is a zingy hit on the top end.....you neeed a rev pipe. nothing motox about it.

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more hp takes more revs or it needs to breath better in every way. 

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how much you want to change can take it from 35hp to 45 hp.
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whats the question- im not a salesman.....

**Edit 1**

basically the paul turner and dynoport and shearer are the best. the dynoport is the most well rounded and not expensive but again no powerband zing... so  the shearer is the next best pipe but its expensive and the ftz makes it sound crumby in comparison. the ftz is no longer in production.

paul turner and dynoport are torque pipes with no zing. the shearer has some zing. nothing else available....
1992 SUZUKI LT250R
,PSI,CEET,RAD

Offline 98 LT250R Hybrid

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #164 on: February 28, 2017, 10:48:37 am »
Thanks sublumacy.  All good info.  Is shearer jerry?  Is the shearer pipe enormous in diameter like the Q pipe I have seen? 

**Edit 1**

Googled Matt shearer and looks like I'm going with his pipe.  Thanks again for the info👍🏻
1989 LT250R
2016 YFZ450R suspension, bead locks, gncc tires, white carbon fiber look plastic, motocross ported motor, decked for race gas, V-Force 3 reeds, 39mm PWK, Hinson clutch basket, FMF pipe and silencer.

Offline Sublunacy

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #165 on: February 28, 2017, 11:40:50 am »
who did your motox porting?  is it tuned for an 8000- 8600rpm powerband? i cant find any videos of the dynoport pipe on a 250. 

perhaps there is a pipe im forgeting but the shearer=Q.  Shearer makes custom pipes so you can ask for something a little different..... but the shearer is a good happy medium between torque and powerband.

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the pipes that come on smooth and soft at 4000-5000rpm put me to sleep. the shearer has a great clutch dump at 4000-5000 so it makes everyone pretty happy.....yes its big too! 

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jerry has nothing for the 250.

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its to bad dynoport does not have a rev pipe with a solid 4000-5000rpm clutch dump. its a great modern design just like the ftz but its tuned 1000rpm lower..... holler at them..... that thing rips on ported cylinders too! the competition will be thinking twice about their 400 pound 450 that are no faster. in fact they mimicked the output of a sport tuned 250 and added weight and throttle responce.

---
 did i mention i have a diploma for this stuff?
1992 SUZUKI LT250R
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Offline 98 LT250R Hybrid

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2017, 01:49:41 pm »
Not sure who did the port work.  I was gonna send the head to Duncan racing, but my engine builder said whoever did the port work did an awesome job and he wouldn't suggest touching it.  The shearer pipe looks good.  A little bigger than a FMF pipe, but not as crazy big as a drag/dunes pipe.  I'm going to get it in raw finish.
1989 LT250R
2016 YFZ450R suspension, bead locks, gncc tires, white carbon fiber look plastic, motocross ported motor, decked for race gas, V-Force 3 reeds, 39mm PWK, Hinson clutch basket, FMF pipe and silencer.
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Offline 92lt250wannabe

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2017, 08:45:08 pm »
I have plenty of videos of my dynoport pipe on my quad on youtube. They big volume pipe is a great pipe. Dynoport also makes a mid-top pipe. I am running a ftz pipe and silencer on my ice quad and let me tell you it's far from fuckin crumby dude. It pulls hard real hard. Paul turner mid pipe is an option fr moto. CT makes a pipe for lts. And the psi is a great pipe also comes on hard and quick. There is lots of things that need to be setup along with the pipe. Can't forget about lrd also. Another strong pipe basically the same as the dynoport big volume. Again so many variables go into the pipe/motor setup to make it work to its full potential. Fmf or the turner mid or psi may be good choices for moto but I like th dynoport big volume. 
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Offline Sublunacy

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #168 on: March 01, 2017, 07:38:34 am »
i agree with wannabee 100 percent. the dynoport cant be beaten so far. 

if you want a racey zingy sound - perhaps the very pretty lrd is a good choice if u want the hit and sound of a 2 stroke baller.

the ct pipe for the 500 is boring as all hell but it is the most modern of them all.  sometimes the best is just to boring....  im not sure about the 250 pipe at ct. perhaps a look there too!

***Edit 1***

I have plenty of videos of my dynoport pipe on my quad on youtube. They big volume pipe is a great pipe. Dynoport also makes a mid-top pipe. I am running a ftz pipe and silencer on my ice quad and let me tell you it's far from fuckin crumby dude. It pulls hard real hard. Paul turner mid pipe is an option fr moto. CT makes a pipe for lts. And the psi is a great pipe also comes on hard and quick. There is lots of things that need to be setup along with the pipe. Can't forget about lrd also. Another strong pipe basically the same as the dynoport big volume. Again so many variables go into the pipe/motor setup to make it work to its full potential. Fmf or the turner mid or psi may be good choices for moto but I like th dynoport big volume.

do you have a video of the dynoport on a stock or ported cylinder?  i have been saying that pipe rocks since the dyno image was released.



1992 SUZUKI LT250R
,PSI,CEET,RAD

Offline MotorGeek - Jerry Hall

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #169 on: March 01, 2017, 11:30:14 am »
I have over 130 dyno runs on a 1987 LT250 that we did with various stages of porting, carb changes, head changes and intake system changes that were made a couple of years ago   We tested the following pipes and silencers combination of the Paul turner, Dyno port, DRQ/Shearer, FTZ in frame, FTZ drag pipe, and some other pipes than I could not identify. When we got to the more radical stages of porting, some pipes dropped out of the race because they did not complement the radical porting.   I can post some of these runs as long as the cheerleaders for some of these pipes do not get their feelings hurt or start another Sh.t storm like when I posted the test results for the HPR19 for the LT500.

 I am a mechanical engineer that designs and produces stuff for my company and the companies that I do consulting for.  I make my decisions based upon the test results I get from field testing, dyno testing and data acquisition in the field, not on hear say, internet polls and or folklore that seem to be apparent method of testing that some of the other companies must be using.  If they were more through in their testing I do not think I would see the test results I see when testing their products.

 These were dyno runs we made when we started development on our HPR pipe to see what we are competing against.  I am a fierce competitor and do not release products until I have convinced myself that what I have developed is head and shoulder above the competition.  We have one HPR design that looks good but I want to develop it a little further before we go into production.  I do not know when I will have time to finish this LT250 pipe development due to my time situation and search for more good employees. 
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Offline Sublunacy

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #170 on: March 01, 2017, 02:35:34 pm »
 -T

some of us just want a suzuki that looks and drives like a suzuki.   +k2

everyone would be perfectly happy with the psi. would be a great pipe to clone for the typical person motorgeek. it had the looks and the sound.

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i know your looking to hit 50hp with a bigger carb but the 4000rpm hit is super on sloppy trails and it was mixed with a great sounding top end.

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keep selling awesome motor and pipes packages motorgeek. iceracer too!

***Edit 1***

tell you what if your hpr250 hits at 4000rpm and peaks at 8000rpm with overrev till 9000rpm... i will want one too maybe.

with those numbers in mind which carb would you want?  does it have smaller brothers with the same outlet and inlet size?

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how much hp will people get out of the stock carb?

***Edit 2***

so far i want a 1996 rm250 exect copy.  45hp at 8-9000rpm and clutch dump at 4000rpm.   JUST LIKE THE 1996 RM250... drool drool  -->
1992 SUZUKI LT250R
,PSI,CEET,RAD

Offline MotorGeek - Jerry Hall

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #171 on: March 01, 2017, 05:11:34 pm »
I have not seen a 250 two stroke quad or any of the RM, CR, YZ or KX 250s motocross engine that hits or come on the pipe at 4000 RPM...  All of the stock power valve 250 two stroke motocross engines since the mid 1980s come on the pipe or hit in the 6000 to 7000 RPM range with their peak power occurring in the 8000 to 9000 RPM range

I have never seen a well designed two stroke  where a real good pipe matched to the porting would assist the "breathing" of the engine and improve the power over more than 30% of the RPM range.


Example:

Let say the engine makes peak power at 10,000 RPM.

(.30 x 10,000) =  3000 RPM of pipe assisted performance.

This means the the power or hit would occur at approximately  (10,000 - 3000) = 7000                   

The best case scenario would be this engine hits at 7000 and peaks at 10000 with decent overrev.   

The majority of the motocross engines stock or modified seldom have a power band width that is over 26% of the RPM range where peak power occurs.

 

Example:

The engine makes peak power at 8000 Rpm

(8500 x .26) = 2210 RPM wide power band.

This means that the engine would hit at (8500 - 2210) =  6290 RPM



If we knew the RPM where the engine hit, where would the peak power occur on a state of the art engine that could have a power band the is 30% wide?

Lets say it hit at 4000 RPM, where would peak power occur in the best case scenario? 

Doing a little bit of algebra to the above equations

              the Peak power would occur  @   (4000 / .70)  =  5714 RPM
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Offline Sublunacy

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #172 on: March 01, 2017, 06:36:03 pm »
 w+
bud all the 96 japanese bikes were doing it 20 years ago.  the hot setup on the smaller engines is 5000rpm hit and peak power at 11000rpm.  im sure i know what im talking about.


***Edit 1***

if it comes on at 5000rpm then it should rev to 11000rpm yes.  you have now passed pipe tech 101
 0>me
1992 SUZUKI LT250R
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Offline MotorGeek - Jerry Hall

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #173 on: March 01, 2017, 07:33:12 pm »
w+
bud all the 96 japanese bikes were doing it 20 years ago.


Show me some graphs of the power and torque curves of some of the engines you are talking about so that I can try to get on the same page as you. You may know what you are talking about but I do not think that I am understanding what you are talKing about.  Point to the part of the power curve so that I know what you mean by "hit"
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Offline Zilla273

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Re: What Is The Best All Around Pipe For The LT250R
« Reply #174 on: March 17, 2017, 07:48:43 pm »
so far on my bartlett 250 the ftz made the most hp and torque over the scp and dynoport.. the dynoport was a good pipe but the ftz is almost the exact curves with 1000rpm of still increasing hp and trq..
  i could not ask for a better set up for it. when jerry gets his pipe done i may try it though +k2

 

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