+-

Author Topic: cyl head squish???  (Read 2859 times)

Offline

  • 1991 Lt250r
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Elite Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1350
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: West Virginia
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2013, 04:27:38 pm »
Junk pwk is propably your whole problems
91 Lt250r Bartlett port and head mod v force 2 Hinson Clutch Basket Cool Head Scp Pipe and silencer ,KN air filter ,EBC clutch, Ohlins  Triple rate Shocks Redone by PEP Shocks,Stock Rear Shock Redone By Pep Shock,  DG nerf Bars , Lonestar axle 2+2,Lonestar Swingarm ,Douglas Red Label rims.

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Green Horn
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2013, 06:00:05 pm »

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Weekend Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2013, 06:08:20 pm »
When I put my keihin on my 87 I loved it. I'll trade two flat slide 34mm keihins. One needs rebuilt, the other I have never ran. For 1 PWK 36mm-40mm.

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Green Horn
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2013, 06:17:20 pm »
here is tthe other one also there is a vid about it.
http://www.powerapt.com/smartcarb.php

Offline

  • CEO BRP
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Trail Blazer
  • ******
  • Posts: 772
  • BRaP Small block 302, Released and Running
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2013, 06:30:18 pm »
James how many engines have you ran at .018 squish?  Or under .030 for that fact.     Just curious.   

That plug looks terrible. Its showing signs of massive overheating. Unless the black on the base ring wipes of with no solvents. What I am seeing is the plug is running so hot the fresh mix is flashing and baking onto the base ring, don't confuse that with anytbing to do plug wise yet. Its all from too much heat in the head. The plug can't transfer heat as fast as the alum head. So its the first thing to show overheating. From what your describing your getting preignition also, this is likely the cause of the wide open issue. For the record , a 18 cc dome can't really be cut to work with a big bore engine properly.
Just for kicks cut It the threads off that plug so you can see up in side. Where the porcelean meets the steel.

As far as the head good move lapping it. But you also need to check the top of the cylinder. The ruler trick is only good for a quick obvious issue. I'm thinking the top of the cyl is not flat or that the sleeve has sunk. Slightly causing some of the head gasket issues along with too much compression and preignition.

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Weekend Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2013, 06:37:09 pm »
That 38mm cast APT smart carb does LOOk bad ass. Slot more affordable than the billet units too

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Weekend Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2013, 06:53:42 pm »
Not sure iceracer, how bout you? The one I'm running right now is at .043. By the way bud, I did state my reference for all to see, and also my disclaimer that I'm not a champion engine builder. I was just saying what I would do. Right or wrong I stand behind all my statements on here. I want this guys motor running right as much as anybody on here. I guarantee ya that. And I don't want any of his money, or any brownie points with my favorite builder by sending his cash there. I got that info on squish from gordan jennings book. He's forgot more about two strokes than most of us will ever know. I stated my freakin references and told the guy that that is what I would do. Now you can tell him whatever you want but you don't gotta go get sassy with me in the process.

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Green Horn
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2013, 07:37:47 pm »
iceracer, i did pull the jug and checked it the same way i did the head, because like i said there was a small wobble in the head so i did want to check the jug. i know this thing is getting hot. thats why i was debating on goin to a 20 cc dome. its tough trying to keep the old lt competive on the mx track with the 450's cause they can ride the whole track in 3rd and never have to shift. where i try to keep up mometom up in the corners and run most the time wfo. i was doing some math and if i use the new gasket thats thicker my squish goes from .046 to .062 i also did notice the dome seemed to be recesed in the head slightly, so when i pulled the dome out i lapped the head down now its flush or just slightly out, just catch the side of it with you finger nail not enough to get feeler gauges under though. what you think about a bowl up grade like this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390657638503&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_1474wt_872

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Pro Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 982
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2013, 07:48:08 pm »
Before dropping $80 on a carb bowl I think you should set the float height, and get the head done so your staying within temps, then adjust jetting if need be. THEN if she still sputters get the bowl see if it actually just needed to suck up more fuel or something else going on.  2c

Offline

  • CEO BRP
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Trail Blazer
  • ******
  • Posts: 772
  • BRaP Small block 302, Released and Running
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2013, 03:40:42 am »
James if I got sassy you would of know it.  Jenings stuff is great reading, a lot of of it is very outdated and extremely general.
 If you run a 250 and set squish at  much less that .030 you going to be replacing the head piston rod and probably crank.  Now as long as its a trailer queen and only ever idles it might live. But when you spin up to 8k+ your F'ed. It will hit.  That's why I was wondering if you ever did one this way.  Fyi minimum squish for a 500 is .040-.042 and it should be a tight engine I've seen worn ones ding ring land closed at that also every engine is a little different wear plays into a lot of the SAFE minimums for these machines.

Offline

  • Trike-a-holic
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Elite Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1307
  • Gender: Male
  • THE Barefoot Bandit
  • Location: Louisiana
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2013, 05:12:59 am »
Would going to 32:1, and raising the needle back up one notch help with keeping it cooler?
1976 Yamaha TT500
1979 Yamaha TT500
1980 Yamaha TT500
1985 Yamaha YTZ250
1985 Yamaha YTZ250
1985 Honda ATC350X
1985.5 Yamaha YTZ250
1987 Suzuki LT265R
1988 Suzuki LT250R
2002 Honda CR85RB
2005 Honda TRX450R
2007 Honda TRX450ER

Offline

  • CEO BRP
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Trail Blazer
  • ******
  • Posts: 772
  • BRaP Small block 302, Released and Running
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2013, 05:54:57 am »
Chuckie, no that will make it worse if you don't jet for the fuel ratio remember going from 40- 32 effectively leans a fuel to Air ratio more oil = less gas. just a clip or needle change could help. Possibly a timing change, there's a lot of possibilities

Racer, be careful lapping the dome on a cool head there designed to be thicker than the Shell to put more pressure on the fire ring.  There should be @ .010 " protruding from the shell, if you get it even or lower you will have some sealing issues. 

Give me a little information on the head and cylinder and I will point you what way to go.
Need to know:
distance piston protrudes from cylinder  deck +-
thickness of gasket measured at fire ring.
Bore size
stroke of engine if not stock
It would help to have a cc on the head, actually measured with something accurate. a syringe works
also an installed cc with the head on the bike would be the best. put a dab of grease at the ring end gap bring it to TDC then install the head and gasket. fill the head with Isopropyl alcohol, to the bottom of the spark plug hole. when done rotate untill ex port opens and let it drain out it will run into the pv cavity. just pull the plug and drain

With this info I can calc some head #s and try to see what the issue is from the theoretical side.
 

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Pro Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 858
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2013, 08:13:45 am »



......................... I got that info on squish from gordan jennings book. He's forgot more about two strokes than most of us will ever know. ...............



Gordon Jennings looked at and worked on a lot of two-stroke engines in the 1960s and wrote about many of these engines in the 1970s for Cycle World Magazine.  Gordon was good at putting his ideas about how things worked on paper although many of his theories and conclusions to his observations have been proven wrong by engineers and engine developers that have done a lot of dyno and field testing on two-stroke engine.  I liked his style of writing and was reading everything that he wrote while I was studying to become an engineer.  Gordon Jennings pipe theory and formulas steered a lot of us including myself in the wrong directions for many years.  Initially I accepted most of his teaching as divine revelation.  As my engineering studies progress I started seeing flaws in some of his teachings.

I started reading SAE papers written by Gordon Blair and his students while I was also studying engineering.  The SAE papers were mostly research papers that presented theory and the testing to prove or disprove the theory in question.  At that point in my academic career, most of the SAE papers were over my head.  As my academic studies progressed Gordon Blair’s research was easier to understand and disproved some of the Gordon Jennings theories and conclusions.

If you really want to learn about two-stroke engine development, read the text books and SAE papers written by Professor Gordon Blair from the from the Queens University in Ireland.  Gordon Blair did research projects for all of the major two-stoke engine manufactures around the world from the early 1960s until his retirement in about 1995.  Gordon Blair did more during his lifetime to further two-stroke technology than all of the combined research done on two stoke from the early 1900s until his death a few years ago.  Gordon Blair’s engineering students are currently working for engine manufactures around the world today and continuing much of the research that Gordon started. 

Prerequisites for reading and understanding Gordon Blair's publications are an engineering background, or training at the university level in calculus, differential and partial differential equations, fluid mechanics, gas dynamics, thermodynamics, computer programming, and physics with and emphasis on statics and dynamics.


Offline

  • CEO BRP
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Trail Blazer
  • ******
  • Posts: 772
  • BRaP Small block 302, Released and Running
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2013, 11:37:07 am »
Racer as far a s the super bowl it could help some but the float level and size of you needle and seat will have the most bearing on fuel supply. 

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Green Horn
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2013, 02:35:25 pm »
Racer as far a s the super bowl it could help some but the float level and size of you needle and seat will have the most bearing on fuel supply. 


iceracer i guess i may be dumb but i just though of it, if i am blowing headgaskets and have cyl gasses leaking into the cooling system that would raise the coolant temp and overheat. right. i just got my new gaskets in today waiting on my buddy to bring the base gasket home and i will insert the .059 gasket in and do a compression test and also recheck the squish. i did the math it should be around .062 but i will check it with the gasket and everything tight. and keep you guys updated. its just hard to believe that with the 40mm overside rad and the cms silicon hoses and using engine ice for coolant (20 bucks half gal) would still get this hot. maybe i will also look into a eletric fan and use the headlight switch to turn it on and off. might get lucky and high speed and low speed.

Offline

  • 1991 Lt250r
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Elite Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1350
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: West Virginia
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2013, 03:21:03 pm »
Anyone else use the engine ice I tried it once and I got a leak from water pump weep hole.
91 Lt250r Bartlett port and head mod v force 2 Hinson Clutch Basket Cool Head Scp Pipe and silencer ,KN air filter ,EBC clutch, Ohlins  Triple rate Shocks Redone by PEP Shocks,Stock Rear Shock Redone By Pep Shock,  DG nerf Bars , Lonestar axle 2+2,Lonestar Swingarm ,Douglas Red Label rims.

Offline

  • CEO BRP
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Trail Blazer
  • ******
  • Posts: 772
  • BRaP Small block 302, Released and Running
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2013, 04:39:37 pm »
If you're blowing gaskets you've got a problem. Just need to sort out exactly the cause of the head gasket failures.

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Green Horn
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2013, 08:18:35 pm »
yeah i get a small drip from the water pump seal if its older when i replaced it hasnt leaked since. also got the racer together squish is now .060 not sure how it runs going to the fly sponcer ride saturday and test it then i will keep you posted. also the thicker head gasket didn't do much for the compresion it still at 210 psi. all i can do it ride it and try it
what is the stock setting for the power valve, i notice its not lined up on the 0 like my other one is. this may also be the problem up in 5th on the hard pull that the spring is to tight and power valve is open???

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Range Rover
  • *****
  • Posts: 474
  • Gender: Male
  • 2 stroke or no stroke
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2013, 08:39:35 pm »
1 turn counter clock wise is the stock setting
89 zilla Bartlett racing Dune Porting,42.5mm rx'd carb,DrQ pipe, vf3 reeds
 89 lt250r custom frame with Bartlett racin Dune Porting, DR Q pipe, zilla carb, vf3 reeds
 00 426ex 12:5 comp, stage2 cam, full yosh exauast, +2+1 a arms, +2 lons

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Forum Moderator
  • Elite Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1389
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: NWA
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2013, 06:42:27 am »
Anyone else use the engine ice I tried it once and I got a leak from water pump weep hole.

All i never used is engine ice.

what is the stock setting for the power valve, i notice its not lined up on the 0 like my other one is. this may also be the problem up in 5th on the hard pull that the spring is to tight and power valve is open???

Power valve is supposed to close at high rpm.  Dont pay attention to the numbers on it.  If you want to reapply tension to the spring to be sure it's correct, be sure there is no tension on the spring then do like Heminutt said.  1 full turn CCW. 

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Green Horn
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2013, 02:33:09 pm »
thanks for everyone's help, i will keep every one updated on how it does at the dealer ride, whats cool about the dealer ride they let bike on the track with the quads so i will have some vids of me smoking some bike soon.

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Weekend Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2013, 05:39:23 pm »
Thanks motorgeek. I think I might start a thread on the books. Hopefully you'll chime in there.
My apologies to motorman since I gave him some bad advice on squish. Luckily you guys got in here before any more damage was done.
Iceracer. My bad dude.

Offline

  • Trike-a-holic
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Elite Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1307
  • Gender: Male
  • THE Barefoot Bandit
  • Location: Louisiana
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2013, 05:45:15 pm »
Thanks motorgeek. I think I might start a thread on the books. Hopefully you'll chime in there.
My apologies to motorman since I gave him some bad advice on squish. Luckily you guys got in here before any more damage was done.
Iceracer. My bad dude.

Not trying to thread jack by any means but this dude just gained some major respect points in my book. Swallowed the chill pill, admitted he was wrong and even apologized!! WOW!!! Rock on dude!!! May the 2-stroke deities bless you with many many more years of happy riding, perma-fresh top ends, and zero minutes of down time for the rest of your days
1976 Yamaha TT500
1979 Yamaha TT500
1980 Yamaha TT500
1985 Yamaha YTZ250
1985 Yamaha YTZ250
1985 Honda ATC350X
1985.5 Yamaha YTZ250
1987 Suzuki LT265R
1988 Suzuki LT250R
2002 Honda CR85RB
2005 Honda TRX450R
2007 Honda TRX450ER

Offline

  • 1991 Lt250r
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Elite Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1350
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: West Virginia
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2013, 07:28:00 pm »
Agree^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
91 Lt250r Bartlett port and head mod v force 2 Hinson Clutch Basket Cool Head Scp Pipe and silencer ,KN air filter ,EBC clutch, Ohlins  Triple rate Shocks Redone by PEP Shocks,Stock Rear Shock Redone By Pep Shock,  DG nerf Bars , Lonestar axle 2+2,Lonestar Swingarm ,Douglas Red Label rims.

Offline

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Weekend Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 209
Re: cyl head squish???
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2013, 08:47:49 am »
Thanks guys. If your hungry enough, crow ain't all that bad to eat. In my circles, I'm used to teaching about mechanical stuff, on here I'm getting used to listening and learning again. But Im liken it.
BTW I run engine ice in mine, and I haven't taken a temp reading, but it does seem to run cooler on the trails. I'm just runnin a stock bore 1987 250 motor. 93 pump gas. I keep her screaming on these KY hills. I can't understand why it runs cooler with the engine ice, but I really think it does. I also run my main jet right on the border of being too rich for the same reason.

 

+- Suzuki Quadracer HQ Store Zone

http://www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/index.php?action=store