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Author Topic: Fuel injected lt500  (Read 5621 times)

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 07:13:51 pm »
Can a heated o2 sensor be used in a two stroke to extend its life?

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2013, 08:14:17 pm »
That's one of the ways they're using to extend the life of an O2 sensor.
They don't even install the sensor on the exhaust pipe, but rather a remote location with an air pump that sucks some of the exhaust out to sample.
Once you pull that exhaust sample out, you can run it through an air/oil separator and over a heated O2 sensor.
It's a continuous flow system, meaning the pump is flowing exhaust over the O2 sensor at all times and nearly as fast as if it were inside the pipe.
Another benefit is that you can hook the line up to the stinger if you wanted to avoid that bit of fresh charge that gets pushed into the exhaust, preventing erroneous O2 readings.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 01:05:39 pm »
I know there was some debate about fuel injecting a 500 single 2 stroke.

Well it looks like it's been done and it sounds an seems to run real good.




There is some nice dirt track, ice racing, fields, & desert riding on this vid

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 01:18:50 pm »
Wonder how they keep the O2 Sensor from getting oiled up?
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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 01:21:25 pm »
Those videos were the reason I started this thread.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 01:30:24 pm »
Just want to say, lot of stupid in here.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 01:36:48 pm »
Just want to say, you don't need to dyno tune it for every mod.
You don't have to retune it for every mod.
It will make more usable power.
O2 sensors can work.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 07:00:30 pm »
Just want to say, you don't need to dyno tune it for every mod.
You don't have to retune it for every mod.
It will make more usable power.
O2 sensors can work.

My experience with running two strokes in closed loop and using O2 sensors has not be very rewarding.   The life span of the O2 sensos are very short when you use leaded racing fuel.  Even when using unleaded racing fuel, keeping the O2 sensor hot enough to keep the O2 sensor from fouling is just one of the many problems I encountered running a two stroke in closed loop mode.  Large single cylinder engines seem to give more O2 sensor problems because most riders do not run the engines at wide open throttle as much as the smaller engines.  Keeping the exhaust system real hot and the average exhaust temperature inside the pipe high is helpful in extending the life of the sensor.  Two stroke racing engines need a lot of oil in the fuel to meed the lubrication demands and this also causes premature failure of the sensors.  The LSU heated Wide Band sensors that Bosch makes seem to last the longest but the life span is still not acceptable by my standards. 

I started using EFI on two strokes in 1993.  The controllers we were using were supplied by EFI Technologies.  At the time they were supplying the engine management systems for the Cosworth and Ilmor Chevy Indy car engines.  We had the same systems and software as the Indy Cars were using but we were only using 2 cylinders of its full capability.  The system we were using could control up to 12 cylinders with 2 injectors per cylinder and each injector had its own fuel map.  These systems were sequential, allowing the tuner to start or stop the injector at any desired crankshaft position. 

The above system also had a lot of options as far as the different types of ignition systems that it could control.  We used the system to control our ignition and had a different spark map for each cylinder.

We were most successful running the Alpha-N type system which used RPM and throttle position as the primary variables for fuel and spark mapping.  The optimum air/ fuel curves for high performance two strokes are not nice and flat like the majority of the four strokes.  Four strokes are a natural candidate for using an O2 sensor to control the engine's fuel needs but I have never been happy with the quality of the fuel control that an O2 sensor provides on a high performance two stroke.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 09:21:14 pm »
I know they have been using EFI on 2-strokes for a while.
Even the government is spending money on making their UAV's a 2-stroke with EFI.

It is possible to run a o2 sensor on a 2-stroke and it work. You just need to learn how to set it up.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2014, 09:32:22 pm »
Efi 2 stroke may work at a constant rpm, like aircraft. Just not so well on a Zilla

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2014, 10:00:16 pm »
I know they have been using EFI on 2-strokes for a while.
Even the government is spending money on making their UAV's a 2-stroke with EFI.

It is possible to run a o2 sensor on a 2-stroke and it work. You just need to learn how to set it up.

The easiest ways to set it up is to not have a two stroke that has a very high specific power (hp/cubic inch) output.  If we use port timings and an exhaust system like what is used on a leaf blower, weed eater or boat engine, it is not real difficult to them run real well in closed loop using an O2 sensor. 

I know a lot about the government 's two stroke engine UAVs.  I have been doing consulting work on some of their two stroke engine projects for about 3 to 4 years.  One of our two stroke projects recently got cancelled.  Now the government wants military equipment to run on diesel even the UAVs.  There are already some diesel powered UAVs being flown. 

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2014, 01:34:35 am »
Why is everyone concern about running fi in closed loop mode? You can tune and use fi in open loop. Many fi atv and dirt bikes don't use an o2 and Many of the sport bike aftermarket fi tuners eliminate the o2 and you just tune the engine on a dyno as would with a carb.
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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2014, 09:09:48 am »
Why is everyone concern about running fi in closed loop mode? You can tune and use fi in open loop. Many fi atv and dirt bikes don't use an o2 and Many of the sport bike aftermarket fi tuners eliminate the o2 and you just tune the engine on a dyno as would with a carb.

Because the air flow curve in a high performance two stroke will move 200 to 500 RPM depending upon the pipe temperature.  The fuel flow or map values being off 200 to 500 RPM makes for a lousy running engine.  This is one of the main problems that I and all of the engine manufactures have encountered trying to run a two stroke in open loop.

The video of the CR 500 indicates they are having the same problem mentioned above.  If you listen closely to the engine it is close to being in tune on one section of the track and way off on another section of the track.  This is because the pipe temperature is changing and the fuel demand is not the same on one section of the track compared to another section of the track at the same RPM and throttle position.  Did you notice that they had their lap top trying to make adjustments trying to hit this moving fuel flow target that they have not gained enough experience to realize that the fuel target is constantly moving. 

I was not impressed with their EFI efforts.  I have seen and worked on a lot of carburated CR 500s that ran better than their fuel injected bike. 

If you try to run a high performance two stroke in closed loop and know what shape air/fuel curve the engine needs we have just changed the name of the look up table from RPM vs throttle position to RPM vs air/fuel ratio.  My findings indicated that the fuel and spark map for a high performance two stroke needs to have at least a 5 dimensional sensing and mapping capability. 

Most EFI 4 strokes run great with  2 dimension mapping systems.  There is a lot more phenomena occurring during one engine revolution in a two stroke than a 4 stroke. 

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2014, 02:38:27 pm »
so if one could maintain a consistent temperature across the exhaust system, would that minimize the effects of air flow fluctuation due to the changes in exhaust pipe temperature?
i agree that if you can make more power with a carb system over an fi and keep the reduce complexity of the fuel system that fi would not be so impressive.

side note or way out in "left field"
ive contemplated if you could somehow combine the reed and throttle system in to a single operating unit and use a fuel injector or multiple injectors to directly inject pre mix into the crankcase, similar to the idea of direct injection on automobiles. would this allow a designer more freedom to play with port design rather than to fall into the constraints of using the same combination of carb to reeds to crankcase to cylinder...
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feel free to elaborate motogeek
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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2014, 03:32:42 pm »
Direct injection into the crank has been done.
And EFI has been done on banshees already. It works.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2014, 05:49:20 pm »
Yamahas H.P.D.I. (High Pressure Direct Injection) & Evinrudes E-Tec both utilize the injector in the combustion chamber of the cylinder head. Lubrication is via separate pressure feed oil lines to vital areas. According to an engineer I spoke with, the advantage of this on a 2 stroke is the intake tract can be optimized for dry flow as opposed to a fuel laden wet flow design.The problem is physical size of the injector pumps, they are big & bulky.  If technology were to shrink these, is there any future with this in the powersports industry?
Brian
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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2014, 06:14:50 pm »
Ive seen a few fi banshees, so u know its been done. Brian, maybe all it takes is people to start trying to apply these systems to power sports and slowly work the kinks out.
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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2014, 09:21:26 pm »
Yamahas H.P.D.I. (High Pressure Direct Injection) & Evinrudes E-Tec both utilize the injector in the combustion chamber of the cylinder head. Lubrication is via separate pressure feed oil lines to vital areas. According to an engineer I spoke with, the advantage of this on a 2 stroke is the intake tract can be optimized for dry flow as opposed to a fuel laden wet flow design.The problem is physical size of the injector pumps, they are big & bulky.  If technology were to shrink these, is there any future with this in the powersports industry?

There is a future if they can find a way to make the cost of EFI and or direct injected systems about the same as conventional carburation and CDI ignitions.  The reason for the direct injection in two strokes was to comply with new emission standards and decrease fuel consumption, not to increase the power.  There is not any power advantage to direct injection.  The boat, jet ski, and snowmobile engines that use direct injection make a lot of power because they are large displacement engines that are not in a real high state of tune. 

The direct injected engines are expensive to manufacture, repair and expensive equipment is needed to diagnose and repair the electrical systems on these engines.  I do not think that the power sports industry is going to move in this direction unless high emission standards are placed on all of the off road vehicles.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2014, 09:28:00 pm »
The banshee ones use megasquirts, then there is one running an old school ecu that uses msdos. There is one being built using a new high tech ecu. There is the technology out there now. You don't need to run an o2 sensor either. The banshee ones dont run them expect to do tune then take it off after initial tuning is done. One guy has many hours on his o2 sensor on his banshee from doing changes on his set up.
The only costly thing for EFI is the ECU. A good ECU is going to cost around a grand. If you know how to use the megasquirt, they are only like $400ish. Injector would be much, just need to know the right size.
For a zilla, you can do a TBI style. Use a throttle body from like a yfzr or ltr or an aftermarket bigger one. Just need some sensor, again not too much.
Main issue is getting some juice out of the stator to run everything, need to make it DC and charge a battery. This is the best way to do it.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2014, 09:29:59 pm »
so if one could maintain a consistent temperature across the exhaust system, would that minimize the effects of air flow fluctuation due to the changes in exhaust pipe temperature?
i agree that if you can make more power with a carb system over an fi and keep the reduce complexity of the fuel system that fi would not be so impressive.

side note or way out in "left field"
ive contemplated if you could somehow combine the reed and throttle system in to a single operating unit and use a fuel injector or multiple injectors to directly inject pre mix into the crankcase, similar to the idea of direct injection on automobiles. would this allow a designer more freedom to play with port design rather than to fall into the constraints of using the same combination of carb to reeds to crankcase to cylinder...
 S~
feel free to elaborate motorgeek


Keeping the exhaust temperature inside the pipe from one end of the expansion chamber to the other constant and repeatable throughout the whole length, would help the repeat ability of the air consumption and fuel demands.

I do not think that there would be much of an advantage of injecting fuel into the crank case over a well tuned carb. 

Suzuki has had doing R&D on some variable lift-variable duration cam engines for about 5 to 7 years but has not been released for production.  These engines do not have a throttle on the intake.  All of the air flow into the engine is controlled by the variable lift /duration cams.  At an idle there is very little lift on the valves and very little duration.  At high RPM and max power mode the valve lift and duration of valve opening is more radical than a conventional cam setup.
   

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2014, 09:35:52 pm »
There are advantages to a proper EFI system or carb and direct injection over port or throttle body injection.
It will make more usable power, get better fuel consumption, and better drivability.
With EFI, you don't have to worry about air speed to draw fuel, so you can run a bigger TB than you can a carb.
There is a reason everything is going to EFI and stopped using carbs. Carbs are outdated.

Back in the day, an EFI banshee was banned from the pikes peak hill climb because it was so much faster.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2014, 10:58:02 pm »
I am with PCS on this, and I've been saying it for a long time as well. Someone just needs to nut up and actually give it a try. As soon as one person does it and figures it all out, or most of it, then a second person will. Then a third, fourth, so on and so forth. After the first few people, majority of the kinks will be worked out.

If I weren't broke I would give it a try on my 250. Just because it's different, mainly. But I'm broke, and know the building an EFI set up will make me even more broke.
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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2014, 06:12:29 am »
Here ya go. Only been around for @ 10-15 years now. All you gotta do is get Suzuki to start producing a new 2 stroke wheeler.

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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2014, 06:00:07 pm »
how could you be broke when you have an army of atvs in your back yard   <1>
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Re: Fuel injected lt500
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2014, 07:00:08 pm »
how could you be broke when you have an army of atvs in your back yard   <1>

BECAUSE I HAVE AN ARMY OF ATV's LOL and they aren't in the backyard anymore. I relocated them to Area 25
1976 Yamaha TT500
1979 Yamaha TT500
1980 Yamaha TT500
1985 Yamaha YTZ250
1985 Yamaha YTZ250
1985 Honda ATC350X
1985.5 Yamaha YTZ250
1987 Suzuki LT265R
1988 Suzuki LT250R
2002 Honda CR85RB
2005 Honda TRX450R
2007 Honda TRX450ER

 

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