Adding No2 (nitrous) to the zilla

• Adding No2 (nitrous) to the zilla
  Posted by Buckeye513 on 23 Mar, 2013 20:29
• Curious what this entails also the pros and cons for running spray on a Zilla only using the spray for drag. Does it kill reliability of your engine? Is it complex to install/tune? What's a nitrous system for a Zilla run cost wise? Any help or advice would be appreciated curious if this is something I might want to invest in for a future upgrade of my Zilla. Thanks guys as always love this site for all the opinions and knowledge you guys have bestowed upon me!
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• #1 Reply
  Posted by WestTexasKing on 23 Mar, 2013 21:21
• In the end you'll wind up with the same HP, there's a limit on the power that a 500 can make before it blows up so you'll hit the same reliability wall as you would with other methods.
  Takes a lot more tuning with nitrous and it can be harder on the engine vs. a ported/piped combo.
  You'll save money, but only if you don't destroy the engine in the process of tuning it, and the expense of running nitrous is something you have to figure in too.
  The only kind of nitrous system you should be running is a wet system (meters additional fuel in with the nitrous) because otherwise you'll melt the piston before you reach the end of the strip.
  It might also change what class you get to run with your quad at a drag, and if that puts you in a league that you really don't want to be in, well...I guess you'll have to get used to losing with a fast LT
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• #2 Reply
  Posted by Chuck D on 24 Mar, 2013 00:20
• Nitrous is good but it does take some setup and tuning. Your running compression jumps way up with nitrous. The key is balancing statistical compression with your head and the running compression with the pipe design port timing and nitrous all together. To make it reliable piston to cylinder clearance, ring end gap, head design, and timing are key changes. The biggest downer with nitrous is you have to run race gas if you are gonna push the button and when your not sucking nitrous race fuel isn't needed. So you either have a detuned zilla off nitrous or a beast on the nitrous.
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• #3 Reply
  Posted by Chuck D on 24 Mar, 2013 00:26
• Also dry nitrous systems work great. They pressurize the float bowl to meter extra fuel to compensate for the nitrous. Once it's dialed it's safe. There is also a new setup that uses the vacum from the nitrous to pull the fuel in with the nitrous. It's kind cool because it eliminates the need to run race fuel all the time. It has a separate small 1 liter tank that it pulls the fuel from. So you just fill that with your need octane level and it is only used when nitrous is flowing
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• #4 Reply
  Posted by WestTexasKing on 24 Mar, 2013 02:32
• Technically, any system that alters the amount of fuel entering the engine is a wet system.
  They only call it dry because the nitrous system doesn't directly inject fuel to compensate for leaner conditions.
  
  A dry system is nothing more than a nitrous injector located somewhere in the intake tract that doesn't compensate for additional fuel requirements.
  This is the type of system that gives nitrous a bad rep...and for good reason too.
  
  Whatever system you decide on, make sure it's capable of metering additional fuel when the nitrous is injected.
  One benefit of nitrous over the traditional methods of power gains is that you can wean yourself off as you get better parts.
  Say you start off with a trinity drag pipe and you're pushing the limits of your engine...what happens when you find a good deal on a Q or JH pipe?
  Simple, you install the pipe and reduce the nitrous charge...now you're pumping less nitrous and making the same HP.
  Eventually, you can find a happy medium where you're making decent power without nitrous, and when you do use it, not as much will be needed.
  Someday you might get off the juice altogether LOL
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• #5 Reply
  Posted by Buckeye513 on 24 Mar, 2013 05:46
• I already have a Q pipe and my cylinder is at MHR being ported along with my head o ringed and machined right now. I'm also having Matt bore my stock carb bigger until I can afford a lectron. So westtex you're saying if I add nitrous to my motor that is ported and piped all ill be doing is reducing the reliability with no additional power gains?
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• #6 Reply
  Posted by Buckeye513 on 24 Mar, 2013 06:09
• I will also be running 100 or 110 octane fuel for detonation purposes and its worth the extra money to me for the reliability advantage alone.
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• #7 Reply
  Posted by Chuck D on 24 Mar, 2013 08:21
• If you have to ask these questions nitrous isn't  for you. West Texas king that is quit the contradicting statement there. A wet system is when nitrous is injected into the fuel system with fuel. The dry system that I'm referring to sprays nitrous into the air box and compensates fuel in the carb. You can't run nitrous with compensating for fuel.
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• #8 Reply
  Posted by WestTexasKing on 24 Mar, 2013 13:42
• Buckeye, you'll need less nitrous to make the same power with a pipe/porting combo...for example, if you're running a 40HP shot bone stock and a pipe/porting combo nets 20HP in addition, you'll only need a 20HP shot of nitrous.
  That's only a vague generalization, since engine work changes how nitrous works and you need to tune it to your bike to prevent a dangerous situation.
  
  
  Chuck, I concede to a misunderstanding in terminology.
  I only have experience with nitrous in a fuel injected situation.
  With a dry nitrous kit, it isn't responsible for metering any more fuel other than the colder intake is sensed by the MAF and adjusted by the computer.
  Take that same kit and throw it on a carbed engine and you'll melt pistons.
  So it made sense to me that a dry system like that would be the same on a carb...therefore a dry system is a terrible idea.
  However, after doing a little more reading (I'm not against being proven wrong), I've found that what guys call a dry system is actually metering fuel by altering carb inputs and responsible for metering fuel as you said.
  
  
  The definitions are vague and almost backwards, "contradicting" as you said.
  My take...
  If you have a dry nitrous system then it doesn't meter fuel.
  If you have a wet system then it meters fuel, how it meters fuel is inconsequential.
  Their take...
  If you have a dry nitrous system, it meters fuel.
  If you have a wet nitrous system, it meters fuel.
  The only difference is WHERE it's metered at.
  I think that's a little more contradicting than what I wrote, but of course what I wrote is wrong LOL
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• #9 Reply
  Posted by Stpltn250r on 24 Mar, 2013 17:40
• I call a dry system w system that does not incorporate fuel with in the kit. If its compensated by sensors on a fuel injected kit or by tuning the carb for the extra fuel. Its still a dry kit, Now when you supply nitrous and fuel into a single nozzle and not changing anything else is what I call a wet system. I have a wet system on my Liger. It draws fuel and nitrous through one single nozzle.
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• #10 Reply
  Posted by Buckeye513 on 24 Mar, 2013 18:39
• Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a Liger?
  
  So basically I could gain horses with a nitrous system but would need to tune it properly to avoid making my engine a bomb. What's a nitrous system for an atv usually run cost wise?
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• #11 Reply
  Posted by Dezsled on 24 Mar, 2013 18:42
• Google it grasshopper
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• #12 Reply
  Posted by Stpltn250r on 24 Mar, 2013 19:20
• a liger is a cylinder made by Cast Precision Industries. Casted with a huge Arctic Cat f1000 intake and triple ex port with triple transfers. I have one mated to a zilla bottom end by an adapter plate. Skully has one also. Mine is a 102.5 bore.
  
  http://www.cpindinc.com/pub/view_product/63?lm=5&name=3101-9779-144
  
  I have a Boss Noss banshee kit on mine. I have not ran it yet. A boss Noss kit runs on lower nitrous pressure than conventional kits. ie. 300psi rather than 1050psi. It draws its own fuel as you hit the button. The nitrous nozzle has a "piston" in it that when nitrous is fed through it it draws the piston up crating a vacuum underneath it drawing fuel in than spraying it out the nozzle. I have a banshee kit because the nozzle are only capable of a 25hp shot. I plan on spraying a 50hp shot hence the banshee kit. Two nozzles at 25hp = 50hp total.
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• #13 Reply
  Posted by Chuck D on 24 Mar, 2013 20:48
• If you do it go all out and get the boss noss methanol injection sytem. I bet it would work great for your application.
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• #14 Reply
  Posted by Stpltn250r on 24 Mar, 2013 20:56
• thats what it is. nitranol kit. Mat Shearer and I think Cameron @ Redline Racing were the ones who helped develop it. Its the kit that Shearer had on his saber when he set the single cylinder record back in 2009. 3.7 in 300ft at 89mph.
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• #15 Reply
  Posted by Quadster on 24 Mar, 2013 21:08
• OK. Here it is again.... Really fun if you know what your doing!!!!
   
  (posted many times,sorry.  )
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• #16 Reply
  Posted by Stpltn250r on 24 Mar, 2013 21:19
• That was a dry kit correct? Thats what happens when there is no compensation of fuel for the added oxygen to the party. Melts **** DOWN!! That was on a 250 to wasnt it?
  
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• #17 Reply
  Posted by Q2W on 25 Mar, 2013 08:36
• I would never run a dry system in anything that didnt have EFI.  Even then i'd be leery. 
  
  Wet system is when the nitrous is sprayed in to the intake along with a shot of fuel (2 separate jets).    The reason pistons melt down in a dry system is because Nitrous Oxide is N2O.  2 nitrogen and 1 oxygen molecule.    You are packing your cylinder full of extra oxygen.  Although, N2O is in liquid form in the bottle, when sprayed, it quickly evaporates.  This chemical reaction causes it to cool to about -120 degrees.  It's not until it heats back up to around 600 degrees that the oxygen molecule separates from the nitrogen and is able to burn.  In Nitrous Oxide form, the oxygen will not burn.  By this time the cylinder is completely packed with extra oxygen and if you dont add fuel you will run incredibly lean and burn down the motor.
  
  I dont see how injecting N2O into the airbox will make your carb meter for more fuel unless it's setup for a constantly intake of N2O (no button just on all the time).  And if you ran out of N2O the bike would running super rich.
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• #18 Reply
  Posted by Chuck D on 25 Mar, 2013 09:48
• It's called a boondocker kit. It pressurized the fuel bowl according to nitrous pressure. So it's only when you push the button it will add more fuel. It works great. I used one on a twin cylinder snowmobile back in 06. 50hp shots. I probly put 2000 miles on that setup and went through at least 20 4lb bottles. No issues. But the initial tuning took a couple days to get it dialed. I run a dry system on my fuel injected twin with a control box. It dumps Extra fuel whenever the nitrous solenoid opens. I have 3000 miles on it with that setup with 50 HP shots on pump gas. No issues. I have installed the boondocker kit on a polaris predator 450 for a customer. Got it close on tuning and he loved it never had an issue. 25hp shot on pump gas.
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• #19 Reply
  Posted by Q2W on 25 Mar, 2013 09:51
• Never heard of that kit.   I'll have to google it.  It sounds really cool though and makes me want to go ahead and add N2O to my bike. 
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• #20 Reply
  Posted by Quadster on 25 Mar, 2013 11:16
• Same kit i got.Bet i ran 2 or 3 20lb bottles thru it (yes 250) with no problems. Just one day, had a few too many, and ya it was fun!!
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• #21 Reply
  Posted by Chuck D on 25 Mar, 2013 13:53
• You have to watch your elevation anything below 3000' you gotta run race fuel or you will have detonation. The amount of nitrous being delivered will change everything as well. I ride really high elevation so you can get away with a lot. If your gonna run nitrous you gotta be able to recognize symptoms of lean AFR and or detonation and always check the plug after first pull of the day. A drop of just 1000' feet can make the differance in detonation.
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• #22 Reply
  Posted by WestTexasKing on 25 Mar, 2013 15:44
• Ambient air temps are also important.
  A 15F increase in temp is equivalent to 1,000ft increase in elevation.
  So if you tuned the system in the morning when it was 50F and ran it that afternoon when it was 80F, you effectively went up 2,000ft in elevation without going anywhere at all.
  It can make a big difference in how you're jetted.
  Imagine if you tuned it at 80F and ran it a few days later at 50F...you'd probably melt a piston.
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• #23 Reply
  Posted by Stpltn250r on 25 Mar, 2013 18:06
• why i take an air density gauge with me to the races. every % in A.D. is a % of change in jetting.
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• #24 Reply
  Posted by Quadster on 25 Mar, 2013 18:45
• 9200 feet.
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