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LT250R Quadracer => LT250R - Engine => Topic started by: Rytie77 on June 18, 2013, 01:41:50 pm

Title: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 18, 2013, 01:41:50 pm
Hi iam new hear I just had my motor redone I get it home and start putting everthing back together I put the kick start push down on it and goes up and stops in pull head and it moves up and down put head on no nuts and the piston hits head can I run to base gaskets and what will that change thank u
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: MotorGeek - Jerry Hall on June 18, 2013, 02:09:05 pm
Hi iam new hear I just had my motor redone I get it home and start putting everthing back together I put the kick start push down on it and goes up and stops in pull head and it moves up and down put head on no nuts and the piston hits head can I run to base gaskets and what will that change thank u

There is a reason why the piston is hitting the head.  Do not just start stacking gaskets to stop the piston from hitting the head.  There may be other problems.

Did  you talk to the guy that rebuilt the engine?

Was the head milled?

Do you have the wrong piston?

Was the connecting rod changed?

Was the cylinder base or head gasket surface machined?

Did you bore the cylinder?  If so how much was it over-bored?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Motoman991 on June 18, 2013, 02:52:45 pm
^^^Mr Hall covered everything.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Dezsled on June 18, 2013, 03:44:37 pm
With each question Jerry asked, it points to different aspects of the engine to look into. So if you can help him pin it down you'll be riding again a lot sooner

 P*
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 18, 2013, 04:18:56 pm
Thank u for responding ok has a new hod rod crank was bored over not sure how much and not sure if it was milled I called the guy who built it and no call back but I put piston all the way down in the stroke and it looks like its perfectly level with the exhaust port
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: MotorGeek - Jerry Hall on June 18, 2013, 06:12:33 pm
Thank u for responding ok has a new hod rod crank was bored over not sure how much and not sure if it was milled I called the guy who built it and no call back but I put piston all the way down in the stroke and it looks like its perfectly level with the exhaust port

Does the edge of the piston rise above the top of the cylinder when the piston is at top dead center?  If so, is the hole in the head gasket large enough for the piston?

If the piston will go through the head gasket is the step in the head at the outside of the squish band larger than the piston?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 18, 2013, 07:27:35 pm
It does not hit gaskit the edge of piston comes out of the cly a little but then drops back in the cly
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: LT250RWV on June 18, 2013, 08:35:47 pm
Get us some pic so we can see what your talking about.Pics help us help you.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Stpltn250r on June 18, 2013, 09:25:25 pm
get some calipers and measure the bore of the dome and the bore of the cylinder.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 07:51:46 am
The piston pots out of the cly then drops below
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: MotorGeek - Jerry Hall on June 19, 2013, 08:08:42 am
What is the piston size?  What is the number on top of the piston?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rider414 on June 19, 2013, 09:27:20 am
Nice looking Jug -  O0
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Dezsled on June 19, 2013, 09:37:02 am
The finish on those cases looks killer too
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 09:48:15 am
Piston number 9328e.  Top number bottom 571m06850
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 09:53:22 am
Thanks guys have a lot of time in this thing hope to have it running soon here is the hole quad
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Stpltn250r on June 19, 2013, 11:40:08 am
you could measure from BDCto the top of the sleeve. i bet the cyl has been milled way to much on the top. did you pc the cylinder? looks like a custom dome is in order. from my cell phone the piston looks to be out the hole by .060. thats alot!
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: MD2smoker on June 19, 2013, 11:46:05 am
On a good note, that chassis looks awesome!  Cant wait to see this completed!
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 01:08:06 pm
Thanks hope it will be done soon yes it is pc hole quad is pc the motor is holding me up were would one get a custom dome
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Stpltn250r on June 19, 2013, 03:54:48 pm
now im on a computer and it doesnt stick out as much as i thought. the liner was making me think it was sticking out further than what it is. do you have an oem head or do you have a pro design?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 04:08:18 pm
I do not will a pro design
Help or i can try to find a head
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: WestTexasKing on June 19, 2013, 04:29:51 pm
The first picture appears to show the piston sitting above the sleeve, I've looked at it numerous times trying to see if it was just an optical trick, but I think that's where your problem is.
Try this....
-Get some thick grease and smear it thinly all over the top of the piston (make sure you get all the way to the very edge of the piston!).
-Install head with gasket and snug the nuts down (don't torque).
-Bring the piston up until it hits the head.
-Remove head and observe where the grease was left (or where the grease was squished off the piston), this will tell you where the piston is hitting and can give us more info to diagnose your problem.
-Take a picture of any findings and post here, then wipe the grease off to prevent spark plug fouling later on.

One of the things it will tell us is if the piston is hitting the head or the head gasket, another thing it will tell us is if the head itself is cut correctly or not (well, partially anyway).
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 05:08:58 pm
Ok I will do that when I get home I did throw a another base gasket on just to see if it would help with the head just siting it didn't I tighted it down and it would just hit
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Glamisrider on June 19, 2013, 06:10:51 pm
Rytie,
There should be a number 86mm through 89.5mm on the top of the piston, what is that number?
I assume this is a weisco?

Also what is the max diameter of the head gasket your using in MM (use digital calipers $10 a Harbor Freight).

If the pics shown are TDC it does not look like your piston is coming too far out, could just be the head, has it been modified or is it stock?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 06:27:52 pm
This is what's on top Piston number 9328e.  Top number bottom 571m06850
I bought it like this but had it bored and new piston I didt ask them to modified it at all
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Dezsled on June 19, 2013, 06:45:47 pm
The last 5 digits tell you the size ... 08650 = 86.5 mm
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 06:51:34 pm
So I should have a few bores left
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Dezsled on June 19, 2013, 06:54:54 pm
Yeah all the way up to 89.5  (Y)
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Stpltn250r on June 19, 2013, 06:58:01 pm
its a 250. the piston is a 68.50mm
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Quadster on June 19, 2013, 07:01:18 pm
Hes got one bore left. Call Cometic and order an oversize (big bore) gasket for a 87-92 LT 250.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Dezsled on June 19, 2013, 07:30:05 pm
Oh man .... Where are my glasses!

Geeze  :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 19, 2013, 08:42:18 pm
What will the big bore kit do for me
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Kyle T on June 19, 2013, 08:45:16 pm
Some say more power. But not much.
Good porting and pipe combo is better than a normal big bore kit.
That, and give you head gasket problems.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: LT250RWV on June 19, 2013, 09:21:11 pm
Get you a set vforce 2 or 3 s and Scp pipe and some porting you have a strong lt250r. Hey  what brand of headgasket are you using i dont think this question was asked.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 20, 2013, 05:44:11 am
K&s gaskits
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 20, 2013, 08:37:07 am
.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Glamisrider on June 20, 2013, 09:45:53 am
Get the cometics and save yourself a lot of trouble.

www.cometic.com

Or Mitch might have some in the store section, not sure if he carried 250 gaskets though.

Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Kyle T on June 20, 2013, 09:58:38 am
I use OEM. _^_
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 20, 2013, 10:48:07 am
So u think I need bigger head gaskit
I still have to so a few test that were posted a few post ago
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rider414 on June 20, 2013, 11:13:52 am
So u think I need bigger head gaskit
I still have to so a few test that were posted a few post ago

Have you ever tried to read your own post?

 D?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: LT250RWV on June 20, 2013, 03:39:47 pm
I use oem gaskets. They are already made for the last bore so you can use them on 67mm or 69mm with no problems.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 21, 2013, 05:13:50 am
Had a friend come by and check this motor out for me me is a 2 stroke guy he took some measure ments  he said that with the cly has to come up about .80 to make it stop hitting the head that's about 4 base gaskits is that ok don't sound ok to me
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Stpltn250r on June 21, 2013, 06:27:26 am
i wouldnt do it. Just get a thicker head gasket or custom dome made. stacking gaskets will off set port timing.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Kyle T on June 21, 2013, 06:47:38 am
What if the cylinder has been decked that much? That many base gaskets would put the timing back where it's supposed to be. Anyone got port timing for the 250?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 21, 2013, 07:15:14 am
I asked  him he said my port timing should be dead on I called cometic they said they could make me a spacer in stead stacking gaskits
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: MotorGeek - Jerry Hall on June 21, 2013, 07:23:46 am
Had a friend come by and check this motor out for me me is a 2 stroke guy he took some measure ments  he said that with the cly has to come up about .80 to make it stop hitting the head that's about 4 base gaskits is that ok don't sound ok to me




.80 mm is about 1 1/2 base gaskets.  .080 inches is about 4 base gaskets. 

What did your engine builder do to your engine when he worked on it.  Why would he machine the head gasket surface or base gasket surface that much?

Did he put a stroker crank in it?



I asked  him he said my port timing should be dead on I called cometic they said they could make me a spacer in stead stacking gaskits


I think I smell a rat.



Talk to your builder and find out what he did to your engine and WHY     !!!!!!!!!




I
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: JayTater on June 21, 2013, 08:31:27 am
Sounds like Darahji's builder made it over to the States.. Bubble gum and super glue, makes for the bestest epoxy ever!
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 21, 2013, 08:51:10 am
He did not stroke it i bought this quad the motor was in a box I had it bored and new crank that was it so I don't no y it's so far off
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Stpltn250r on June 21, 2013, 09:39:45 am
thats unfortunate. probably why the motor was in a box when you got it.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 21, 2013, 10:01:57 am
Iam sure lol but I now have a lot of time in this quad so iam sure it will all work out
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: WestTexasKing on June 21, 2013, 10:04:54 am
1. Get a die grinder.
2. Push piston to TDC.
3. Grind until nothing hits.
4. ??????
5. PROFIT.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Glamisrider on June 21, 2013, 12:42:18 pm
Really you need to remove the cylinder and have it measured by a pro or try it yourself if you think you ca do it right.

Ice racer should be able to guide you in the right direction as to how tall the cylinder should be from base to top deck.

Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Stpltn250r on June 21, 2013, 12:52:44 pm
think the base is ok. he said at bdc it was even with the bottom of the ex port. its just at tdc it hangs out, which like jerry said. does it have a long rod, stroker crank or wrong piston. says it doent have any of that so the top of the cyl has had to much removed. at tdc it sticks out the hole.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: MD2smoker on June 21, 2013, 04:42:53 pm
Spend $20-$30 on a decent micrometer. You will use it many many times. I dont know what the exact # s are. But i know the factory suzuki manual will tell you the cylinder and sleeve heights. Measure them or have a pro check it. 
You said that the piston is covering the exhaust port just before TDC but at what degree on the crank rotation is that?  Without a degree wheel you cant know if the port timing is correct.
I also wonder about the PC on the cylinder.. It looks great but often PC'd cylinders need redecking afterwards due to the baking heat of the PC.  Could your builder have decked too much to compensate for the distortion of the base or head surface after the PC was cured?
Im kind of echoing others here... You need to get very specific answers from the builder to find out whats up. And take it from there.  I suspect the cylinder was far from true on either the base, head or both sides and material was removed to square it up.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: MD2smoker on June 21, 2013, 04:46:34 pm
Sorry just saw you were saying the piston was BTDC on that.  Im not sure of what the measurement or position of the piston should be on the 250 at BTDC, but i do remember very detailed pics and measurements from my factory 90 250 manual.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 23, 2013, 09:12:53 am
Ok so I took some mesurements hope I did it rite my cly from the top base to the bottom base was 4.8 830  came across another cly it was 4.9 260 in  MM mine was 123.78 the other cly is 124.77
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Kyle T on June 23, 2013, 06:31:52 pm
That's 43 thousandths of an inch, and 0.99 of a millimeter. Might as well be a mile! 0>me
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rider414 on June 23, 2013, 06:51:31 pm
Spacer Plate or a Custom Head -
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on June 23, 2013, 07:25:04 pm
Having a plate made and hope it does the trick thanks guys for all the input
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Kyle T on June 23, 2013, 07:25:50 pm
It will work! +k2
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Iceracer on June 23, 2013, 08:11:47 pm
Be sure and measure the bore the head is set up for. You spacer plate will work fine to +- zero out the piston to top of cylinder. It sounds like you have a couple common issues, stock head that hasn't been chambered properly for the bore size and a sleeved cylinder. As you piston grows in over sizes you NEED to have the head opened up at some point to properly clear the piston or you can crush the ring lands. A sleeved cyli deer will have had the topof the cylinder trued to set the sleeve the same height as the casting.  If there were imperfections it could have had a lot taken off usually  a few thousandths is all you need but a bad cylinder ;can require much more.
Be sure to check the head.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: WestTexasKing on June 23, 2013, 08:13:14 pm
 No grinder?   :'(
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Iceracer on June 24, 2013, 01:14:10 pm
Use a Chisel... call it a turbo cut... LOL
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: 1986QuadRacer on July 22, 2013, 10:14:14 am
A chisel? Shoot just drip a little acid down there till it works silly. It'll probably be polished too maybe.  P*
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: James Dandy on September 10, 2013, 08:39:47 pm
I joined QR just because of this post. I gotta know how it all worked out and how this thing runs!
I'm sure it's gotta run on 110 or greater, I'd say she's gonna have plenty of compression. I'm building an 88 motor right now. The faces where the cyl bolt to the case on mine are a little scarred up and I've been gathering info on how much can be cleaned off of each cyl land and what head and port mods must follow. Found a must read for everybody (since it's free) http://www.datafan.com/Horsepower_Blog/gordon-jennings-two-stroke-tuners-handbook/
Check it out! Loads of info. It's got slot of the formulas. Also I have an LT manual here if y'all want me to look anything up.
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: James Dandy on September 13, 2013, 10:56:05 am
What's the scoop on this build? Any progress?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rytie77 on September 17, 2013, 12:37:26 pm
some lol i had a spacer plate made fix that issue almost done had some water pump issues all new stuff still leak got a new impella  and it stoped leaking which i dont no how but it fixed it
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: CrustyOreo on September 17, 2013, 02:02:39 pm
I'm ignorant. Why did he have to make a spacer? Why couldn't an alternative solution be had? Is his Jug decked?
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: Rider414 on September 17, 2013, 02:18:50 pm
His piston was sticky out of the top of the cylinder ALOT when it was put together.

We are speculating that "someone" aggressively cut the deck too much. So he had a space plate that would be placed at the base to raise the cylinder back up to spec.

 
Title: Re: Piston is hitting head on new rebuild help please
Post by: LT250RWV on September 17, 2013, 03:58:56 pm
Now on mine I had .40 off the bottom and .20 off the deck. But I run thicker afm gasket to fix mine .I think the gasket is .40 .when I had my head cut fir proper squish I had to use a gasket because of a defect in the cylinder.