Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LT250R Quadracer => LT250R - General Discussion => Topic started by: All American on September 26, 2015, 02:54:38 am
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i use good high end type f atf in mine and change is constantly, they use soo little and its soo easy to change the oil vs changing shift forks.
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Suzuki should have engineered a tranny fluid filtration system if you have to change the oil after every ride.
Be tough on a 2 stroke due to no oil pump like a 4 stroke for lubricating the engine as well.
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Suzuki should have engineered a tranny fluid filtration system if you have to change the oil after every ride.
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I'll have the dealership handle all my maintenance since I paid for it already when I bought it. That cost me an arm and a leg!
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I like nice things also but I run my toys hard as hell.
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Can't hurt to change it I guess..
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Well I really don't ride it much. I'll start it every once in a while just to keep things lubricated somewhat. I'm a collector and like to have nice things and not use them lol it's got 99% highway miles and I did rip it here and there...maybe a dozen times just to get a rush. I just got to thinking about the tranny fluid because I've never changed it.
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I personally change my oil every one or two rides depending on how hard I'm riding. If it's a long day of hard riding I change it after that. If I am just easy trail riding I will go a couple rides between changes. I change my ice quad oil after every race day. I run Mobil 1 4R oil. Works well for me.
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So I got a question about my 2013 Honda ( I know) TRX450ER. Do I need to change the tranny fluid as often as I do my 85' 250R? The 4 wheeler has never been on dirt or mud, only country highway miles.
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If you were going to use automatic transmission fluid in a wet clutch. The reason for the type f is its non foaming where any mercon or dextron is a foaming fluid. Also the type f is a grippy fluid. For years gm used more aggressive clutch material than ford . But ford type f is a more aggressive fluid.. i would think something like belray gear saver wet clutch oil is easier on the transmission gears than type f . Another thing to note is a 230 is a 4 strock and the same oil that lubricate's the bottom end of the motor is also lubricating the transmission gears and the clutch pack. They are not separate. In a two stroke its only lubricating the clutch pack and the transmission gears. The motor is getting lubed by the oil mixed in the fuel.
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Here in Missouri, the winters can get fairly cold. I store my qr in an unheated garage. Should I take special precautions as far as running the motor before it has warmed up? Or is it ok to start it up and drive it with the tyranny cold. Is it hard on things to rip on a tyranny still cold?
I do not believe you will hurt the transmission running the engine hard when it is cold but you could seize the piston if the cylinder is not warm so the bore diameter has expanded enough to make room for a hot expanded piston. The piston temperature almost instantly follows the load and power output of the engine, where the bore diameter closely follows the water temp.
Sometimes the clutch will slip when the oil is cold and thick.
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I have always let my bikes idle and warm up a bit before taking them out and riding. Even after a light warm up I ride them slower and easily before just ripping on the throttles. I would recommend this to anyone as well. I wouldn't say that its hard on parts because I do not 100% know that to be true.
However I also don't go out in the morning start my car/truck and slam the gas peddle to the floor before its warmed up.
Like Jerry said everything wears in these motors just by normal function. That is just how things are. That is why maintenance is very important. The fluids and oil only stay clean and clear until your first ride. hell mine usually gets dirty after the first startup after a fluid change.
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Here in Missouri, the winters can get fairly cold. I store my qr in an unheated garage. Should I take special precautions as far as running the motor before it has warmed up? Or is it ok to start it up and drive it with the tyranny cold. Is it hard on things to rip on a tyranny still cold?
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I just had to ask didn't I? LOL. I don't really know half of what you said. I really should take a mechanics course or two.
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Where does a majority of the particals come from? Maybe the clutch basket? What's a high wear and tear part causing it?
Every time you shift gears it knocks off a small fragment off the corners of the dog and socket on the transmission gears. The ratchet on the kick starter looses some metal off of the edges of the oneway teeth every time the kick starter is used.
Every time you use the clutch there is clutch dust added to the oil. The clutch dust from kevlar or carbon fiber clutch plates is more abrasive than dust from OEM fiber clutch plates. There is some metal that wares off the tabs on the clutch plates and basket when the tabs slide up and down in the clutch basket slots. There is also some ware on the tabs and basket every time the load changes directions hammering the tabs and slots in the basket.
There has to be some metal that constantly being lost off the teeth of all of the gears but I think this loss is very very small.
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Where does a majority of the particals come from? Maybe the clutch basket? What's a high wear and tear part causing it?
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I run ATF because it's cheap.
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if that's good enough for you, its good enough for me.
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The Clymeranual doesn't state it either. It says, use only a high quality detergent motor oil with an API classification of SE or SF.
About 90 % of the motor oils (cheap or expensive) you will find at any auto parts store, grocery story or kool aid stand will meet these API classification. You do not need to spend a lot of money on tranny oil. The key is change it frequently.
MotorGeek, there is no doubt in my mind or questioning what you say, cause I KNOW that you are like the Wikipedia of our qr's and other quads too. Your kind of like my grandpa, when he talks, everybody shuts up and listens cause we have respect. We now know that it is important to change it very often and that most oils meet the API standards,.... Knowing this, what do you yourself use?
What ever oil is on sale that week.
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The Clymeranual doesn't state it either. It says, use only a high quality detergent motor oil with an API classification of SE or SF.
About 90 % of the motor oils (cheap or expensive) you will find at any auto parts store, grocery story or kool aid stand will meet these API classification. You do not need to spend a lot of money on tranny oil. The key is change it frequently.
MotorGeek, there is no doubt in my mind or questioning what you say, cause I KNOW that you are like the Wikipedia of our qr's and other quads too. Your kind of like my grandpa, when he talks, everybody shuts up and listens cause we have respect. We now know that it is important to change it very often and that most oils meet the API standards,.... Knowing this, what do you yourself use?
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My 87 yellow manual said 20w-40w suzuki oil but I've been running 20w-50w amsoil motorcycle oil ever sense it was available with no problems. I change it every 10-15 hours with it hot.
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The Clymeranual doesn't state it either. It says, use only a high quality detergent motor oil with an API classification of SE or SF.
About 90 % of the motor oils (cheap or expensive) you will find at any auto parts store, grocery story or kool aid stand will meet these API classification. You do not need to spend a lot of money on tranny oil. The key is change it frequently.
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The green service manual calls for the tyranny fluid to be replaced after a 100 miles, or 200 km, or once a month. However we have already established its best to change after a single day of hard riding if possible. As far as what to use,... the manual doesnt state a certain oil.
The Clymeranual doesn't state it either. It says, use only a high quality detergent motor oil with an API classification of SE or SF.
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I have both manuals, I should go look for you guys.
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what fluid does the service manual say to use? my friend has mine or i would look.
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That's messed up.
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And as far as clutch baskets go, I have sent an old one to Barnett to see if they could make a few dozen billet pieces. They kept my basket & told me no. :(
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Totally unrelated to gears, but I've been doing a lot more blacksmithing for ornamental iron projects and a few knife blades. To harden the knife blades, I throw them into the forge until they are a uniform dull orange then quench them in used motor oil. After doing this 3 or 4 times, I then sharpen the blade. They seem to hold the edge pretty well as opposed to a raw piece of flat strap (I used to cut out knife blades on my band saw when I was 9 years old. They would bend over & go dull in a day from normal use).
Just wondering if this process could be done to gears?
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im going to heat treat my shift shaft in my oven- you guys can make one from rare earth metal if you want.
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a recipe i found for small steel parts for diy heat treating is 4 hours at 450f with the part wrapped in fiberglass to protect it from the heater elements. perhaps longer due to the thickness.
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will that do for the shift shaft?
450 F for 4 hours is going to change the temper only if it is high carbon steel. If it is high carbon steel and was already heat treated so that it was hard and very resistant to bending, your temperting process for 4 hours at 450 is only going to make it softer and bend more easily.
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im going to heat treat my shift shaft in my oven- you guys can make one from rare earth metal if you want.
P*
a recipe i found for small steel parts for diy heat treating is 4 hours at 450f with the part wrapped in fiberglass to protect it from the heater elements. perhaps longer due to the thickness.
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will that do for the shift shaft?
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the shift shaft is a little soft and likes to bend and it has no bushing or bearing either as i understand.
--- also the crank balancer puts alot of stress on the gears during instant rpm changes caused by traction from the rear wheels. i.e spinning out then suddenly full traction and bogging down the rpm.
does the honda have one? i know the 86 rm250 did not.
My shifter shaft is slightly bent. Funny you should mention that.
If titanium isn't ideal, what metal would you choose?
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the shift shaft is a little soft and likes to bend and it has no bushing or bearing either as i understand.
--- also the crank balancer puts alot of stress on the gears during instant rpm changes caused by traction from the rear wheels. i.e spinning out then suddenly full traction and bogging down the rpm.
does the honda have one? i know the 86 rm250 did not.
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I can make gears in my shop but I do not have the type of heat treating oven it takes to properly heat treat and case harden gears.
Heat treating gears takes many hours in a special type of heat treating oven. Heat treaters charge by the hour for oven use whether the oven has one part or a hundred in it. This makes small batches of gears unaffordable.
Titanium is too soft and cannot be heat treated to a hardness that is required for gears.
I see three problems with Suzuki's gears:
1. The feed rate on the gear hobbing machines appears to be set on high resulting in a very rough surface on the gear teeth or the hobbing cutters they are using need to be of a better design .
2. The gears blanks appear to be cast and I think that the material is not as good as it should be.
3. The case hardening thickness is not consistent from one batch of gears to the next.
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If you have to ask, it cost way too much.
A set of Titanium gears for a zilla would be around like $5K. And it would still have parts "flake off"
The man reason you change your oil is because of the clutch plates and fibers. They are made to wear so they grip. If you are worried about changing oil every ride (maybe because cost) but want custom gears, something isn't right.
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Is there an aftermarket clutch basket made of a superior metal...maybe a builder on here that offers one? Would it be ridiculously expensive to have a set of gears machined out of...I don't know, titanium or some other metal?
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yea the clutch pads wear and it ends up in the oil.
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What is it in our engines' metallurgy that makes us need to change the oil so often? Where do these particals come from?
From the gears, clutch plates and where the tabs on the clutch plates rub in the clutch basket slots
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What is it in our engines' metallurgy that makes us need to change the oil so often? Where do these particals come from?
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Oooops, I changed the oil in my 86' LT 230E. And I used auto 10W30 motor oil. I haven't started it. So can I drain it really good and put the correct oil in it and be safe?
If I remember correctly the LT230E is a 4 stroke motor and it has a shared oil sump for the trans & the Motor?
If so You can run shell rotella 15/40 I run this in my yamaha 350 warrior with a shared sump.
If it's separate run the type F or Maxima MTL in the tranny and the 10/30 in the motor.
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Oils like MTl 80wt does not have the viscosity of a true 80 wt like hypoid 80wt gearbox oil. If it did your clutch would probably slip until the oil temperature was well over 200 F deg. Two stroke transmissions seldom exceed 180 degrees even after long periods of hard riding
1. Our two stroke transmissions would have the longest gear life if we used the 90 wt to 140 wt hypoid transmission/differential oil but would also pay a high price in power loss with the transmission and clutch basket "churning" the thick oil.
2. Our multi-disk wet clutches would have the longest life and torque transmitting ability if they ran something like a 2 wt oil, but gear life would suffer.
The engineers at the major manufactures are aware of the two above facts and have found the best compromise of clutch life, gear life, clutch slippage and power loss is using one of the readily available thin multigrade engine oils but changing it frequently.
I think that marketing departments of the oil companies have created the "special oils for engines/transmissions" to have a reason to charge outrageously high prices for these "speciality oils" and to pacify the environmentalist that do not want us to ever change our oil so that we do not consume oil. The marketing departments of the major offroad manufactures are also becoming increasingly aware of the influence the environmentalist are having on the legislation and the power they have in closing down riding areas.
Honda has some of the best engineers and product testing programs on the planet. I do not think that they subscribe to the oil industries claims that they have special oils that will last for long periods of time in engines that share the same oil in the engine and gear box. If their testing proved that these speciality oils did what they claimed they would not be designing some of their racing engines that use two separate oil systems. One for the gear box and one for the engine oil.
Engines and transmissions that run under extreme load conditions need frequent oil changes regardless of the quality or cost of the oil.
I do not recall what Suzuki says to run in their LT two stroke transmissions but most engineering departments of the manufactures say to run 10w30 or 10w40 motor oil. I think that the marketing/public relations departments have the final say so when it comes to what is published in the owners and shop manuals.
Think about what you read in your shop manuals............ is it from the engineering department or the public relations department?
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i have not warmed up to 80w for wet muliplate clutches because i have never looked for it local. i understand the service manual asks for 80w but im curious if any brand will do / or does it need to be a wet clutch type?
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Dude really. A few people already answered this on this thread!!! You need to use this thing called the internet and do some research. most major motorsports or powersports oil companies make 80w oil or something basically equivalent. Like Jerry already stated, frequent oil changes are more important than runing 20$ a quart oil.
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well im sorry if i was crude again. i have a dozen herniated discs wich mess me up but i still play hard.
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i have not warmed up to 80w for wet muliplate clutches because i have never looked for it local. i understand the service manual asks for 80w but im curious if any brand will do / or does it need to be a wet clutch type?
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Not sure if its fact or fiction, but some folks that run the ATF say to use the Type F and not the Dexron / Mercon stuff. Who knows?
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I run maxima Mtl 80w in summer time 75 in winter. It is made specifically for wet clutch systems.
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you might find clutch slippage problem now. correct oil and new clutch kit will fix it if that is true.
- cork clutches are good for dino oil. fiber clutch works ok with synthetic.
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if someone wants to illuminate me on using 80w im all ears. if your just going to point at specific brands im not listening.
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Oooops, I changed the oil in my 86' LT 230E. And I used auto 10W30 motor oil. I haven't started it. So can I drain it really good and put the correct oil in it and be safe?
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If you're losing your temper over Quadracer trans oil recommendations, you may wanna step back and rethink your direction in life...
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.Some use Auto trans oil for cars.Others run 10w30 or 10w40 but made for motorcycles/wet clutches.DO NOT USE regular motor oil.
Search the thread as far as what to use for Trans oil or look in the manual.Also depends on what temp your riding in.
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rainman is the only person that answered the question fairly.
4 stroke motorcycle oil is for gearboxes with multiplate wet clutches. ---
-- explain to me how it is not exactly correct please. i have had this conversation twice before. im allready loosing my temper.
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How do you check the tyranny fluid level?
There is a screw on the side of the case near the the oil fill. If you back it off and no fluid comes out, you're low.
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I have a funnel from walmart thst has ml on it and it also has a shutoff valve built in. Makes fills pretty easy.
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Looks like I'm going to be looking for some maxmia mtl 80. Now i just got to figure out how I'm going measuremout 900ml. I do own a funnel that has measurements labeled on it. Maybe it will have ml on it.
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Then use Creatine.
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Money isn't a problem when it comes to my quadriceps. I only want the best for her. Thanks everybody.
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Well the best I have found is maxmia MTL (Stands for manual transmission lube).
They make it in 3 weights, 75 which is lite, 80 which is regular, and 85 which is heavy. I'd run the 80wt regular (MTL-R).
Now if maxmia is to expensive run a good quality type-f tranny fluid.
What ever you run, change it often, every 10 to 15 hours to keep all the particles cleaned out of the motor.
If you shop for the maximum on amazon it's only about $1 to $2 a qt difference from a good quality type F fluid.
I would change it more often than every 10 to 15 hours. With Suzuki's metallurgy I would drain it at the end of every weekend at the end of the last ride while it is hot.
If you wait until you get home most of the metal and clutch material will be stuck to the bottom of the cases. When it is hot most of the particles are suspended in the oil and will leave with the hot oil when it is drained.
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Well the best I have found is maxmia MTL (Stands for manual transmission lube).
They make it in 3 weights, 75 which is lite, 80 which is regular, and 85 which is heavy. I'd run the 80wt regular (MTL-R).
Now if maxmia is to expensive run a good quality type-f tranny fluid.
What ever you run, change it often, every 10 to 15 hours to keep all the particles cleaned out of the motor.
If you shop for the maximum on amazon it's only about $1 to $2 a qt difference from a good quality type F fluid.
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There is a drain plug on the bottom of the case.Make sure you have a gasket on it when you reinstall it.The fill cap doesn,t have a stick but the case is marked for 900ml.Just pour a liter in and your good as long as you have no leaks.As far as oil you,ll get a variety of answers.Some use Auto trans oil for cars.Others run 10w30 or 10w40 but made for motorcycles/wet clutches.DO NOT USE regular motor oil.
Search the thread as far as what to use for Trans oil or look in the manual.Also depends on what temp your riding in.I used to run Automobile trans oil and change it often but have switched to 10w40 kawi oil as it protects better and I have a bunch laying around.
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How do you check the tyranny fluid level? My dip stick for the tranny has no stick on it to measure. No Windows to show you the level. Also, what is the best tranny fluid to run and how often should it be changed? And 1 last question, how do you drain the fluid tranny? Is there a drain plug or do you just take off cap and turn your four wheeler over? Lol