Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LT250R Quadracer => LT250R - Engine => Topic started by: Protoolsuser81 on January 03, 2014, 02:48:08 pm
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well what was the problem.
What wasn't the problem might be easier to answer if I'm being honest. With a leak down test the engine leaked from several spots, reeds were shot, crank bearings had some noise, leaking oil from almost every case seal besides the kick starter, top end was destroyed originally, carb needed a rebuild. I wish I could have just replaced the crank as well while we were that deep in it, but I was tapped on cash by this point unfortunately.
The only thing to do now is get my jetting sorted out, and cross my fingers nothing else goes wrong.
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How did you go from asking us how to split cases to rebuilding the bottom and top end in 4 business days? P* :o <1>
Top end I had already had punched out and I put back together and then had this problem here. I was debating trying to split the cases myself and save the 100.00 I paid my friend to do this, and just buy some tools and such with the money instead. That is why I was asking questions about it and trying to figure out my options.
Here is how the bottom end and all the bearings and seals/gaskets got done in a single day, not in 4 days. S~
I went to my local shop around 11am and they had almost everything that I needed on hand, except one seal which another local bike shop just so happened to have, I made it to the other shop around noon to pick up the last seal I needed and my shopping was done for the day. From here I took it back to my friends shop and ended up there about 1pm, and he then tore the engine apart like he had done it 100x before. We did the whole tear down and rebuild (I had the engine out of the quad already) in about 6 hours as I helped clean parts in the solvent tank and watched as he worked his magic. My buddy has worked in a honda dealership and also a harley dealership as a mechanic, so he knows his stuff pretty well and has all the tools. Nothing crazy really, just having the right tools and know how and you can obviously do a whole rebuild in a single day. I definitely learned a lot along the way though!
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How did you go from asking us how to split cases to rebuilding the bottom and top end in 4 business days? P* :o <1>
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well what was the problem.
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Update...
Took it to my friends shop and I'm glad I did because it was kinda a big job and I just don't have had the tools we ended up needeing. Plus having a solvent/cleaning tank was amazing for cleaning out all of the engine parts from years of gunk and sludge. Anyways, we put all new seals and gaskets and also new crank bearings, honed it out and carbon reeds in it. Super stoked to get out and ride this thing today on the ice and see how she runs now.
Thanks everyone for all the advice and guidance so far, just wanted to say this place has been a huge help.
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well sometimes you can split them with out any special tools, but if they are bonded together good you might need a case spliter, dont go jamming a screw driver between the cases, you will damage them and it wont seal where you put screw driver ati would try to put some yamma bond on the case where its leaking first, this way you dont need to split them. just clean area very well, use rubber gloves so the oil from your fingers dont contaminate the area that is leaking.
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You got a local shop or order from internet place that sells oem suzuk parts. I like the oem base better. I have never had oem base leak on me. I have had Cometic base and head gaskets leak . Hear is place I have used before to buy oem parts.
http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/oemparts/#/l/suz/50d086c4f87002271015a0ae/1988-quad-racer-lt250r-parts
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no a pick to pull seal out, instead of jamming a screw driver in it.
something like these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Snap-On-Mini-Pick-set-of-4-/171209192925?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item27dcdcf5dd&vxp=mtr
What tools will I need for splitting the cases? Just a flywheel puller tool or more?
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no a pick to pull seal out, instead of jamming a screw driver in it.
something like these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Snap-On-Mini-Pick-set-of-4-/171209192925?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item27dcdcf5dd&vxp=mtr
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actually the oem head gasket is pretty good, and the oem base gasket is better than most of the others, i would get the cometic base and a oem head, and seals are very easy to change, you just need a good pic to remove them, and put new ones in. no need to tear motor apart, just a few things need taken off to do this. if you have tools do it your self, no need to have a shop do them. put a little bit of grease on the seals before you put them in.
When you say "pic" do you mean picture? No need to tear the motor apart to replace all the seals and gaskets for the top and bottom end? Please explain.
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Would it be best to just buy all Cometic gaskets? I'm very confused on where to find Oem gasket kits and exactly what they're to be honest. The only complete kit I could find with seals is from Moose or something. I did find Cometic top end kit and bottom end kits though.
Also the store here is out of gaskets it looks like for the lt250r.
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actually the oem head gasket is pretty good, and the oem base gasket is better than most of the others, i would get the cometic base and a oem head, and seals are very easy to change, you just need a good pic to remove them, and put new ones in. no need to tear motor apart, just a few things need taken off to do this. if you have tools do it your self, no need to have a shop do them. put a little bit of grease on the seals before you put them in.
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Cometic afm base gasket, buy it in the store here. The stock base gasket is a pos... The head, cometic with with ultra grey or o-rings.
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I figured it was a air leak you had. But when rebuilding these motor you dont want cut cost on seal and gaskets. Stay with oem gasket and seal and orings. It will cost a little more but will be worth reliability. I would just go threw and do all the seal.
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Also what is the best and cheapest way to buy a full engine gasket set and seals. If i do go the route of having my friend do it he said I should replace my crank bearings as well. Should i get the seals with that or the full gasket set?
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Well, good and bad news....
Bad news is I found a huge leak while pressure testing right under where the exhaust flange is where the case comes together. Also a slight leak at the bottom of the cylinder as well.
Good news is that I found the problem and now I can take the proper steps to fix this.
Do you guys think I should try and find a used bottom end and just swap it out? The one I have has all the paint stripped off and looks kinda cool like that. I have a friend who runs a shop and will redo the seals with me for 125.00 but I have to buy all the parts and such. Maybe I should buy the tools and attempt myself? I guess i'm at a crossroad of what step to take next and would love some advice from you fine folks.
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No thats what I used.. the boyesen reed say in instruction that you may have to drop the main by 6 sizes Because it can make them rich.The fmf will run on stock jetting say nothing about running bigger jets. Also they were jetted safe form the factory. Done plug chops to confrim I wasnt rich.I never melted a piston down the whole time I ran the setup. When I first got my quad 3 years ago. It had a 240 main needle in 5th clip and a 45 pilot. Running 44 to 1 now i run 32 to 1 Which it poured oil out of the flange. People never wanted to ride behind me because their quad got soaked in oil. But it would pull threw all parts of the throttle. But after I jetted it down finally got it to quit soaking the silencer and for it to stop making a mess. But the biggest thing getting the pilot and the needle working right so you can get to wot to get it to pull full threw the throttle.
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Wow that low of a main huh? Did you mean 310, 290...ext?
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With your same setup I ran around a 40 pilot in winter. Between 210 to 220 in the winter 3rd or 4th clip. . Summer 35 pilot 195 to 205 in the summer needle 4th clip. But find out if you got a leak before you try what I was running. That low of jet with a leak will fry the motor.. leak down tester is a 2 stroke best friend. I wish I would have made a video when I put mine together.
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http://www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/lt250/put-together-a-simple-air-leak-down-tester-for-under-$30/msg33361/#msg33361
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I think it's time to build a leak down tester and see what I come up with. I'm really starting to wonder if there is a leak someplace now.
Any good threads or tutorials on how to build a leak down tester? Also is there anything I need to worry about with the exhaust valve or any special things I should do or lookout for? Do I need to remove any covers to check for leaks if I happen to have one that I can't see from the outside?
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You are way lean... maybe an air leak?
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Another thing....When I rev the quad it still takes a while to idol down.
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Yep its a fmf. What size jets did you end up with. I know the weather and altitude play a role but I'm just curious. I also took my exhaust manifold off and used some rtv silicone. I'm still having trouble with the idol screw needing to be all the way in. Also when I choked it to start once today it reved up pretty high and I had to shut the choke off for it to idol down. I thought it was going to diesel and it was a ice cold start.
Should the idol screw move the slide up and down? When I had the carb off I couldn't notice any movement.
Also, do you have a normal gasket for the exhaust valve as well as that squish round gasket? I put some rev sealent on the head where the studs are and also on the pipe but I ran it right away and blew it out a bit. I got some threebond I might try and let sit for a few days and dry up.
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What pipe do you have. Since you changed the jet it quit running off didnt it. I fought this same problem with mine for awhile. The biggest thing help mine was I took the ex flange off and put the new gasket on Behind the flange .Then I clean ex flange really good cleaned the pipe out really good. Then I used honda bond on my flange and inside of the pipe. Then I let it sit till it completely dried. Which stop all the leaking the motor then I figured out my jetting. Which took awhile . Do you have fmf pipe and silencer.
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Thanks for posting this Dez, this video was a huge help. I'm going to give this a shot today.
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With the description of your leak check your float valve stopper.
I tried to find a vid but none of a mikuni flatslide for float valve adjustment. The keihin carb shown is very similar in function.
http://youtu.be/Kgog_Ng0-2Q
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Also how exactly do you adjust the floats on these stock carbs?
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When you checked the floats, did you remove them from the carb completely? The reason I ask is the float valve stopper has a rubber tip that over time becomes grooved sitting against the seat letting fuel leak past. After as many years it's been around it probably needs to be replaced.
A new needle wouldn't be a bad idea also, as they do wear down. Chasing problems it's best to start with parts that will give consistent/reliable results.
No I didn't remove the floats completely. Is there a way to fix this problem without replacing them?
I did however do a carb rebuild and put in a new needle and stuff like that.
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When you checked the floats, did you remove them from the carb completely? The reason I ask is the float valve stopper has a rubber tip that over time becomes grooved sitting against the seat letting fuel leak past. After as many years it's been around it probably needs to be replaced.
A new needle wouldn't be a bad idea also, as they do wear down. Chasing problems it's best to start with parts that will give consistent/reliable results.
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Ok so here is the rundown of what I did today.
I put in a 37.5 pilot jet and then got some 110 octane and did a 50/50 mix with the 87 octane. I ran it a bit and still had gas coming out of the air cleaner. The guy at another local motorcycle shop said my float must be sticking. I made sure everything was moving when I put the bowl back on and shook it around but still had the same problem. I also sprayed starting fluid all over the seals and had no idol difference.
What gives? Should I get reeds first or a new carb?
What kind of carb should I get if needed?
I also noticed the exhaust valve rod fell off in that little window and put that back on but really has no movement when I rev it. Still leaking gas out of the carb as well. Any advice here?
Also I still have to have the idol screw all the way in for a idol with 2 turns out on the air screw, and as I back the air screw out my idol still goes up and up. Does this mean my pilot jet is still to lean at 37.5?
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Ask your motorcycle so where you can find hi octane fuel. Av gas can be found at an air port.
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Was it idling with no run off before you changed your jets. You have the head shaved boyesen rad valve. What pipe are you running and is your quad porting.
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The crown of the piston in comparison to the shape of the cylinder head combustion chamber is what determines the performance your machine will generate.
On a stock lt500 the shape isn't optimum, so the machine shops that are knowledgeable modify the cylinder head. Multiple builders here are up to speed on what's needed to turn your motor (250 or 500) into a dependable fire breather.
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I think he said like .15. I had a very good local motorcycle shop do this (they've been doing this stuff for as long as I can remember) and the guy told me just watch the compression because it was shaved down a bit. The head looks pretty simular to the way it was just cleaned up.
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I also just read about having the head shaved and getting higher compression and not having the right octane could cause dieseling as well. I just had my head shaved down and i'm only running 87 octane so now I'm wondering if this could be a issue.
Let me ask you guys this…..At what compression should you run what octane fuel?
How much was shaved off of the head? How does the shape of the squish band compare to the shape of the top of the piston? What is the piston to head clearance? You may have shot yourself in the foot by having the head shaved. High octane fuel sometimes will not help some head shapes!
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Where would I buy 100 octane? I think I'm going to go get a couple gallons of 110 and then mix it with the 87 I have now would this be fine?
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If you can, run 100 octane Av or race gas.
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i'm only running 87 octane so now I'm wondering if this could be a issue.
Let me ask you guys this…..At what compression should you run what octane fuel?
Never run 87 in a QR engine.... Minimum 92 on a mild 250. It is a QUADRACER and new gas is ethanol junk.
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Go through the jetting steps I bumped, it will help you. Also, what mods are done to the quad?
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Well when I tested the air screw from bottomed out, the more I turned it out the higher the idol would go. I thought this was a indicator that the pilot jet was to rich?
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If you changed the pilot to a 25 thats is your problem im running a 40 pilot right now 15 degree weather. Only time I run a 25 is on my ported setup on stock carb that is in the dead of summer. If you dont quit messing with all your jetting circuits your going to fry that motor in the cold where you live one circuits at a time get it idling to 1/4 throttle adjust the needle to 1/2 . Then recheck to see if you idle is fine. Then go on from their 3/4 to wot throttle one at a time you need to read in tech section Carls write up about jetting l. I will bumb so you can read it. It will help if you choice to use it.
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I also just read about having the head shaved and getting higher compression and not having the right octane could cause dieseling as well. I just had my head shaved down and i'm only running 87 octane so now I'm wondering if this could be a issue.
Let me ask you guys this…..At what compression should you run what octane fuel?
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Thanks guys, I will be contacting Boyesen to see about that boot. How do you tell if your reeds are good or bad?
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I did just change the pilot jet to a 25 today. Also moved the main back up to a 280 to be safe. This can cause it to diesel like that?
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It looks like you have a Boysen Rad Valve. If that is what you have you will need to contact Boysen to get the rubber boot.
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Boyesen rad valve is what you have. Check it before you buy reeds. Mine use to do it when I had it jetted to rich. Say I was half throttle from wide open mine would load up and split the gas back into airbox. Sound like you have a air leak or to lean pilotjet.
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Well I guess it's time to buy some reeds then.
Do you know where I could get a new rubber boot that goes from my carb to the intake? I will attach a picture cause I don't think it's the stock one.
The carb has a indent where the boot has a lip and they fit together and the same with the intake but the rubber boot I have is missing some of that rubber lip and it's falling apart so I don't think it's sealing as good as it could. I would love to get a new one but i'm not sure where to get them. Any idea's?
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It'll be your reeds
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Well I had the quad start dieseling today and also there is fuel dripping out of the k@n. Not just a little but quite a bit and it has me concerned that something is wrong with the carb. Any idea's?
About the dieseling, I have read that dieseling usually comes from a leak and i'm wondering if the exhaust manifold leak can cause this? I'm going to use some rtv sealant on both the reed intake and the exhaust manifold. Is there a easy way a noob like me can do a leak down test pretty easy after that? I read something about the power valve being a issue with the lt250r but I don't know if there is any truth to this. Sorry for all the questions but I'm just trying to plan my next move with this quad.