Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LT500R Quadracer => LT500R- Exhaust => Topic started by: PowerStrokin on November 15, 2013, 06:21:33 pm
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pretty damm nice. wish i had the skills to do that.
if ti was mine i would have to go hit huge mud hole and say look guys no rust. lol
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/23274B9B-0321-4433-9FDB-AB0E3191698F_zpsblgig5wq.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/jeremiah25/media/23274B9B-0321-4433-9FDB-AB0E3191698F_zpsblgig5wq.jpg.html)
Look no rust. Lol
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Nice!
Lol shuts quad off steps off, TROJAN MAN!
LOL I hate making videos. I always end up reminding myself of Ricky Bobby's first interview in Talladega Nights, when he has no idea what to do with his hands.
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Nice!
Lol shuts quad off steps off, TROJAN MAN!
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Looks good can you get some videos
Here's a quick video
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/th_IMG_0280_zps78fefcdd.jpg) (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/IMG_0280_zps78fefcdd.mp4)
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I used 18 gauge.
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Great job ive built a couple pipes and have ben thinking for a long time on building a ss pipe what gauge ss u use after see your this may get me motivated to build 1 for my hybrid
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The new high tech 4 strokes run extremely high exhaust gas temps. The pipe on my yfz gets glowing red hot on a regular basis. This is the norm for most all the high tech 450's. This is extremely hard on the exhaust pipes.
The egt's won't be that extreme on this two stroke. I personally don't think cracking is going to be an issue. That is yet to be proven. I'd bet a dollar that this pipe lasts longer without cracking than my Q v1 pipe did. P*
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Heck, this was the first time I heard of a stainless exhaust on a four wheeler. I just bought a 2013 trx450r and for all I know it could have one on it. I by no means know what you guys do. Period. I'm just curious, so if I ask questions that come off like I am questioning you, please accept my apologies. And I'm apologize if that post rubbed some of you guys the wrong way. So now come the peanut galleries' questions... ;D
1. Would it matter that those are pipes are 4 pokes and not 2 strokes?
2. What kind of problems are you seeing from the ones you have been fixing?
3. Any ideas what is causing those problems and how to resolve those issues?
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If somebody manufactured a nearly rust proof, hand coned, dyno tested pipe... Now that's a new market. Let's also say it was manufactured in limited numbers... Imagine the demand for something like that. You'd be the new kid on the pipe block for LT's. (Y)
Hand coned steel pipe are very time consuming to build. Building a hand coned, all welds hammered, stainless pipe will be much more time intensive than a steel pipe. This would make the cost out of reach for the majority.
Another concern I have is reliability. Even when the manufactures use back purging and all of the tricks necessary for proper stainless fabrication, I repair a lot of stainless steel and titanium 4 strokes pipes.
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Yeah I wanna heat that surgically gorgeous piece!
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Looks good can you get some videos
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Got it fired up tonight. Did a couple 5 minute heat cycles. I'm getting excited now!
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If somebody manufactured a nearly rust proof, hand coned, dyno tested pipe... Now that's a new market. Let's also say it was manufactured in limited numbers... Imagine the demand for something like that. You'd be the new kid on the pipe block for LT's. (Y)
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This is how all pipes should be made. But then again you would never have to replace them from lack of care.
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pretty damm nice. wish i had the skills to do that.
if ti was mine i would have to go hit huge mud hole and say look guys no rust. lol
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My next project is going to be my mustang. After I get it done, I'm going to finish my hybrid. After that I'm going to build myself an atv dyno. If I had a dyno where I could actually test and develop my own pipe, I might entertain building a few to sell, but knowing the speed at which I finish my projects it would be several years down the road at the soonest. LOL
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Looks great!
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Nice
I've always hated using muratic acid to clean off my bare metal pipes.
I could go without 1 kidney to afford that
(Y)
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It's pretty much done at this point.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/02C6E057-EC3A-480D-9DB6-3FD5332E2D0F_zpstnwpnfuu.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/jeremiah25/media/02C6E057-EC3A-480D-9DB6-3FD5332E2D0F_zpstnwpnfuu.jpg.html)
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One of the most common porting errors I see on the LT500 is shops making the intake bridge narrow and or putting a knife edge on the bridge. Modifications like this just shows a lack of understanding of some of the most basic principles in gas dynamics. Narrowing the bridge just makes it weaker and knife edging actually makes the port act like the port is not as wide as it was before the knife edge shape was created.
It is very difficult to make someone understand why "Knife edging" does not do what seems like a no brainer. Unfortunately gas and fluid flow does not always behave like intuition would have us believe.
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10 hrs that's interesting.
I don't consider myself to have a high HP zilla but it seems to run pretty good and I'm getting 35 Hrs on average on a piston. JH would have a better idea of where my motors HP range would be.
Is your bike drag ported with no bridge?
One of my jugs, I ported excessively back in the day, and the bridge broke on it. I run it no bridge now, but my good jug has the bridge. It's funny, if you look at the two jugs most people would swear my old jug would have to run harder, but it isn't even in the same category as my new jug. The ports are much more hogged out in the old jug. But I made a couple of errors I can't correct completely in the transfer ports. It runs good on top, but is really dead down low. With my old jug I can run 30+ hours on a piston. When you pull the pistons out of it, they look worn, and the rings will be trashed, but the piston won't be collapsed much. With My new jug though, the piston looks good, with very little signs of wear, but it will be collapsed.
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10 hrs that's interesting.
I don't consider myself to have a high HP zilla but it seems to run pretty good and I'm getting 35 Hrs on average on a piston. JH would have a better idea of where my motors HP range would be.
Is your bike drag ported with no bridge?
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That's fine its no big deal. You don't need to a prick about its only a pipe. Christ you act like someone is trying to bang your old lady.
I didn't really think I was being a prick....I guess offering to help by posting up info on how to layout a cone is being a prick nowadays? All I was getting at is if you can't plug the numbers into these equations and solve for everything you need, then I'm not going to type out a big old math lesson. There are sights on the internet that can do a far better job than I can.
Also, I'm not giving out pipe dimensions. If I give out critical dimensions off of an HPR19 or Q pipe or any pipe for that matter, that is unethical. I'm not going to do that. I am not a pipe designer either, so I can't design a pipe for you and give you that info. I understand not wanting to shell out big bucks for a pipe, and the appeal of making your own. I have been there, but you are going to have to either design your own pipe, or buy one, or find someone else to give you the info. There are books out there that cover two stroke pipe tuning. I found a free copy of one on the internet once upon a time. It was very thorough, and made pretty good sense. I'm betting if you put your mind to it you could design a decent pipe with it.
Anyways I do appologize if I came across as a prick. I was tired and didn't feel like typing enough to thoroughly explain last night. I also needed to draw this diagram out to show how this worked.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zps23c7de8b.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/jeremiah25/media/null_zps23c7de8b.jpg.html)
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What about using, say, a 5mm higher pin location, and a 5mm longer rod? My simple brain says "No moving cylinder" yeah?
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A longer connecting rod would probably help if the damn piston pin wasn't closer to the BOTTOM of the piston than the TOP! >:(
The piston pin needs to be about half way up to skirt to distribute the load evenly on the skirt.
Also
Moving the piston pin will also require the cylinder to be located higher or lower affecting the crankcase volume.
One of the tricks in a good engine design is finding the happy medium in all of the design parameters simultaneously. If you optimize one parameter it often hurts another parameter so bad that the overall power and or reliability suffers.
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That pipe looks nice enough to eat off of.... But you really can!
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A longer connecting rod would probably help if the damn piston pin wasn't closer to the BOTTOM of the piston than the TOP! >:(
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That's fine its no big deal. You don't need to a prick about its only a pipe. Christ you act like someone is trying to bang your old lady.
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To all that are wanting to know about cones. They are simple to figure. They are simple to lay out. That is if you all payed attention in math class. To those of you that didn't....give up now. I'll throw some basic equations up here after a while. I'm not going to teach you how to make sense of them. That's up to you. I'm also not going to tell what dimensions to build your pipe too. A good education is not cheap. A **** poor education from a student, is just that, a **** poor education. Ask someone else. I'm still trying to make sense of this stuff myself.
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Nice thread. Tight pipe! A work of art indeed. Pipe building is a black art. It is nice to see someone doing a project like this. A picture of the microwave pipe wold be cool. If anyone has some cone print outs you can send them to me:) $$$
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I think what he's telling us, is he has built it to very tight fitting specifications and made several mods to it I assume. High HP engines tend to not last as long as mild mannered engines. which is dramatically affecting the life of the piston, as well as other components probably. I think he mentioned you could hear it slapping when at idle from the small tolerances. At least that's what I'm understanding. It must make some incredible HP to wear that fast.
The pistons on the high HP engines get loose because the skirts collapse. The skirts on the pistons still look new on most of the pistons that are real loose. The modifications that we perform on the piston does noting to improve the life. In fact the modifications reduce piston life but help increase the power. There is nothing that can be done to improve the piston life other than leaving the Zilla at home in the garage. Longer connecting rods do not seem to reduce the time it takes for the piston to collapse. We just need a stronger piston.
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What about a billet piston? -->
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Here is one of the threads. There have been several more.
http://www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/hall's-precision-racing-products-(hpr)/500-piston-design/
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I think what he's telling us, is he has built it to very tight fitting specifications and made several mods to it I assume. High HP engines tend to not last as long as mild mannered engines. which is dramatically affecting the life of the piston, as well as other components probably. I think he mentioned you could hear it slapping when at idle from the small tolerances. At least that's what I'm understanding. It must make some incredible HP to wear that fast.
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Dang what's done to your Zilla that you're only getting 10hrs of piston life? That doesn't sound normal at all.
That's pretty normal for a high horsepower zilla. There have been numerous threads over the years detailing the problem. Jerry has talked about doing custom pistons to fix the problem, but the cost is so high, he probably would never recover the cost of the tooling. So as far as I know it just something you have to put up with if you want to have a 75+ hp zilla
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That is a great looking pipe. Good job!!!
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Dang what's done to your Zilla that you're only getting 10hrs of piston life? That doesn't sound normal at all.
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Most of them I have ran across were poorly equipped, as you can guess. My point is, more or less, don't judge a book by its cover. I bet not one of them expected to get beat by a stock chassis YFZ.
I can't really compare the costs of the two builds. I bought that yfz with a blown engine. I had to buy everything anyway. Cases, cylinder, head..... It was all trashed. The only things I salvaged were all clutch and tranny related. That being said, it didn't really cost all that much to do that build. The stroker crank wasn't any higher than a stock crank. The big bore jug wasn't any more than a stock jug. I can go on, but you get my point.
The zilla on the other hand, since I do all my own engine work, was super cheap. The problem with it is pistons. At the power level it is at, I only feel comfortable putting about 10 hrs on a piston. I'm seeing .005 - .007 of collapse in the piston in that amount of time. That puts it up in the +.010 of clearance range, which is an audible knock if you are paying attention.
The way I see it, my yfz can't replace my zilla, but my zilla can't replace my yfz either. They are two complete different animals.
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Nice info about the outlaw, these other Zillas you raced were they built like yours or did they have fmf and DG and PT pipes? To add to that how much is in your yfz motor compared to your Zilla motor $ wise?
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No. I joined powerstroke army and powerstroke nation but I have never posted on army and rarely post on nation
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Not to run off track, but are you also on powerstroke.org?
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Yeah you're probably right. Both yfzs beat the outlaw badly. I am pretty disappointed in the performance of the outlaw, but I still really like the bike. It rides like a Cadillac and has reverse. I built both the blue yfz engine and the ktm engine. The head on the Ktm flows like a river. It was 30 cfm better with similar porting to the yfz head, on my brothers flow bench. It has a 12.5:1 compression piston, for a max effort pump gas setup. Everything else is pretty much the same as the yfz, big carb, good pipe and intake, blah blah. The only thing I can figure is the weight and the IRS really really handicap it.
P.S. I have raced probably a close to a dozen zillas with the blue yfz, and I have only had one (other than my own) beat it.
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I think he meant how's the outlaw stack up to the 450's. We all know a good built Zilla eats a 450.
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How does the yfzs do against it as far as power Hi^
The blue yfz is the faster of the two. It is a 15:1 compression 98mm big bore +3 stroker with ported head +1 valves, big cams, drag pipe, bored carb, fci intake, dynatek ignition with custom curves. My zilla is about 8 bikes ahead of it at the drag strip at little Sahara OK
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How does the yfzs do against it as far as power Hi^
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Not to get off topic but is that a Polaris outlaw 500 in your signature photo? I only ask because a buddy that had been riding his 88 honda 250x since we were 14 just bought one for $900.
No it's the 525 ktm engine outlaw irs. Awesome trail bike other than it seems to be fairly high maintenance.
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Not to get off topic but is that a Polaris outlaw 500 in your signature photo? I only ask because a buddy that had been riding his 88 honda 250x since we were 14 just bought one for $900.
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Your turn Brian =)
I'll leave the pipe building to the pipe building professionals. But I do admire the passion that went into this stainless pipe.
On another forum (atvdragracers.com), I remember reading a thread about 2 stroke pipe design. A few members there were showing some of their home made drag pipes & left commentary on how each performed on the dyno. I always give props to those that wish to take on this endeavor. However, this brings up an interesting question... What materials lend themselves to making good useable power in a 2 stroke engine?
It's not so much an advantage, it's just different. Let's say for example it shifts the torque curve 300 rpm up. Which drops peak torque 5 ft lbs. Changing the tuned length to shift the toque curve back down 300 rpm should gain most all of the torque back. I'm betting the percentage of difference after the tuning changes are made would be insignificant.
The major down side is that it could take building several pipes to get the differences ironed out.
I am no expert of two stroke pipe building by any means, so take this with a grain of salt. Jerry is one of the best 2 stroke guys in the business from what I know. I talked to him quite a bit about this when I had him build my hybrid pipe, and this is what I gathered from the conversation. I have also gathered this from what reading I have done. And I'm in NO WAY trying to put words in anyone's mouth, or proclaim to be an expert.
But because of my research and conversations with Jerry I did make a few small changes to attempt to compensate for the differences. I doubt I accounted for everything on my first ever attempt, but I've had a lot of fun.
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Somebody should write a book, "How to make 2 stroke pipes for DUMMIES". P*
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Your turn Brian =)
I'll leave the pipe building to the pipe building professionals. But I do admire the passion that went into this stainless pipe.
On another forum (atvdragracers.com), I remember reading a thread about 2 stroke pipe design. A few members there were showing some of their home made drag pipes & left commentary on how each performed on the dyno. I always give props to those that wish to take on this endeavor. However, this brings up an interesting question... What materials lend themselves to making good useable power in a 2 stroke engine?
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Your turn Brian =)
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Stainless steel is more difficult to cut, roll and weld than cold rolled steel. Back purge welding is required when welding stainless or the pipe will crack in the welds. I know how much time it takes for us to make a HPR 19 with patterns. Looking at your craftsmanship I think that I can see at least 25 to 40 hours of passion on your good looking project.
Stainless steel does not transfer heat as quickly or does not store as much heat as cold rolled steel. These two facts will make a stainless steel pipe of the same dimensions and thickness as a steel pipe, come up to temperature a little quicker and will shift the power and torque peaks to a slightly higher RPM.
I broke the labor up into small enough chunks, that I have no real idea how many hours I have in it.....but it is a lot. It is truly a labor of love.
I work with stainless almost exclusively, so for me it's almost easier because I know exactly what it's going to do when working it. How much it pulls. How it flows when welding. How the set the welder for a perfect purged burn through weld....etc.
It came out pretty good, but the perfectionist in me wants to cut it all apart and roll the pieces back flat into patterns. I know if I did, and cut all the shapes out of flat metal, rolled them and fit them individually, it would come out better. Cutting and grinding the pieces to fit like I did left me with some pretty big gaps and significant differences in diameter between some of the pieces. But I'm not going to do that. Lol
I remember you mentioning the slight predicted raise in the rpm of the power curve when I asked you about making my hybrid pipe out of stainless. I don't want to sacrafice any potential power on my hybrid, but on this zilla I'm not too concerned. When I finally finish the hybrid the zilla is getting a ground up restoration and a stockish engine put back in it. It's going to be low maintenance, play bike.
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Looks killer!
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Stainless steel is more difficult to cut, roll and weld than cold rolled steel. Back purge welding is required when welding stainless or the pipe will crack in the welds. I know how much time it takes for us to make a HPR 19 with patterns. Looking at your craftsmanship I think that I can see at least 25 to 40 hours of passion on your good looking project.
Stainless steel does not transfer heat as quickly or does not store as much heat as cold rolled steel. These two facts will make a stainless steel pipe of the same dimensions and thickness as a steel pipe, come up to temperature a little quicker and will shift the power and torque peaks to a slightly higher RPM.
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I concur.
I have to work to keep my HPR 19 from rusting, Jerry how much for a stainless version? Probably have to sell a kidney to afford it :D
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Looks good bro. And i also remember kirks microwave pipe tearing it up. The cone how was that to make?
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(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zps433d1e58.jpg)
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Sexy
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Cool to see what goes into fabbing up a cone pipe sweet!
Making your own silencer also?
Well I'm fairly certain the pro's are using software to generate a 3d view of the pipe, then generating an exact flat layout. From there you can use a bandsaw, laser, water jet, etc to cut the pieces out precisely. After words you roll them into the individual cones. That would be easier if I had the software to generate the view and flat layouts. All I have is a minor in math, and an old triangulation method sheet metal layout book. The tapering elbow triangulation layout is a PITA. So I didn't do it. I used a brute force trial and error method combined with 20 years of fab experience....not exactly the ideal setup, but it worked for me
On the silencer.....Sorta....not really. I had a pure Polaris dual exhaust setup off of my 525 irs outlaw that I am no longer using. Each silencer was almost the exact same size as the silencer hall made for my HPR19. Luck I guess :) All I had to do was make a mounting bracket.
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So many questions, first off, it looks slamming sexy!
1 what do you gain by using stainless steel?
2 is it heavier?
3 does the fact that it is made of stainless steel have any side effects on the engine?
4 can more people start doing this?
w+ #1> +k2
Thanks for the compliment! I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability, but I don't know the answer to some of them.
1. Stainless is like chrome that won't rust. That is my reason for using it. I shouldn't say it won't rust, but 304 stainless, which is what I used, is very rust and corrosion resistant. Much more so than chromed steel. At kraft we use 316 stainless for everything food contact, because it is even more corrosion resistant than 304, but for pretty much everything else we use 304. It stands up to pretty much everything but the most harsh acids and chemicals and salts, that are used during sanitation.
2. There isn't much weight difference between 304 stainless and mild steel per square foot, at the same thickness. I honestly don't remember which is heavier, but they are so close to the same weight there probably wouldn't be an once worth of difference if the same thickness was used.
3. This is one that I can't answer honestly. The power curve of a two stoke relies on the tuning of the pipe as much as any other factor. The tuning of the pipe relies heavily on the speed of sound. The speed of sound is affected by many things. Heat is one of the things that effects it. I can not say for sure how much the stainless steel will effect this. I hope the percentage of change is small enough that it is insignificant, but it will take a dyno test to prove it. If there is a change, I HOPE it is for the better and it somehow makes more power than the hall pipe! +k2 I THINK it will be fairly insignificant with only a marginal difference than the hall pipe. At the end of the day I EXPECT it to still outperform my old Q v1 pipe.
Honestly though if it is close enough to the Q pipe that I don't see a noticeable loss in power I will be satisfied. The bike runs freaking hard with a Q v1 pipe. :)
4. Honestly the fabrication wasn't easy. I have 20 years of fab experience and do it professionally. I wouldn't expect most people to be able to pull one off that was nice, however I recall a guy making a hard running pipe out of a microwave..... So anything is possible
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Cool to see what goes into fabbing up a cone pipe sweet!
Making your own silencer also?
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So many questions, first off, it looks slamming sexy!
1 what do you gain by using stainless steel?
2 is it heavier?
3 does the fact that it is made of stainless steel have any side effects on the engine?
4 can more people start doing this?
w+ #1> +k2
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oh and that pipe look bad A$$..nice work
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Nice work! Now hurry up and get a 250 version ready. +k2
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so you selling the other pipe. lmk
If you are referring to the hall pipe, then no it is for my hybrid. All I have for a zilla is a rusty, busted up q v1, stock pipe, and a trinity oof drag pipe.
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so you selling the other pipe. lmk
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Thanks for all the compliments guys. I truly hope it performs well. As far as offering it to the public, I have no plans to. I patterned this pipe very closely to my HPR19 hybrid pipe. I made a couple of small changes, and obviously my fabrication method made it impossible to nail the lengths down perfect.....but none-the-less it is more or less a copy of a Hall pipe. I have no desire to rip off Jerry's design and try to profit from it. Besides the fact that I would HAVE to buy a lot of equipment to start making them. Making it how I made this one, I'd have to charge like $5000 to make a profit..... (pg) sorry not gonna happen.
I think the best option is for everyone to pester Jerry in to making a stainless version of the HPR19.
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Definitely cool! Gonna offer them to the public by chance?
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Freakin awesome! I wish I had the skill and ability to do a project like that!! Super envious hope it finishes out nice and produces good power for you!
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Bad azz! +k2
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I have the stinger welded in now, and I'm in the process of polishing/cleaning the welds up. I have the silencer made and mounted, but I don't have the pipe connecting the head pipe to the silencer made yet. And I still have to make mounting brackets, but the end is in sight. Lol
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I was really happy when it got to this point. The only bad part was the hours and hours of welding ahead of me. Lol
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zpsad06611c.jpg)
Just so you guys know I am a machinist/welder for Kraft Foods, so sanitary pipe welding is part of my job. When pipe fitting you have perfectly smooth and square cuts ends that fit awesome. So really all you have to do is purge the pipe with argon and do a burn through fuse weld. It takes a little practice to get your power settings and speed down so that you burn through completely and evenly. A little too hot and your weld will sag, which isn't sanitary (or worse yet blow a hole). A little too cold and you won't burn all the way through, which isn't sanitary or strong.
Welding this pipe up wasn't as easy. My pieces fit decently, but not good enough to do a straight fuse weld. I had to rod fill these welds because I had plenty of gaps. Gap filling welds on thin sheet metal are a PITA. But all in all it turned out ok.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zpsed66307e.jpg)
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Gorgeous, I want one!
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wow that looks like a pain in the but. looks good tho
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Naturally this was a slow, tedious project with a lot of taping and grinding to get everything to fit how I wanted. When I was satisfied with a section I would go ahead and tack it together so it was more rigid to fit off of.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zps0499006c.jpg)
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After I had several pieces in a row cut out I would tape them together and fit it to the bike.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zps0eaa3c42.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zps7992d912.jpg)
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I have been working on this project for a while now in my spare time (which is non-existent). It is almost done at this point, so I thought I would share some pics from start to finish. Normally most guys do this as they progress, but everyone would be bored to death with this thread before I got done if I did it that way. I hope to have it finished this week or next, that won't be too bad. Lol
So my method was rolling long cones and cutting angled pieces out of them. I marked them with electrical tape, and cut the pieces out with a die grinder and cut off wheel.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/null_zps03280db5.jpg)