Suzuki Quadracer HQ
Suzuki Quadracer HQ Discussion => Suzuki Quadracer HQ - General Discussion => Topic started by: QuadMan8 on October 06, 2013, 10:02:02 pm
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Or we are not going through them fast enough. If wiseco can make money off them, they will keep selling them. So people, blow you engines up more often, like once a month or replace the pistons more often.
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Sure seems like there will be a shortage in the future. There's a shortage already!
I'm telling ya guys, the combo of a coated piston on a nikasil bore wears alot longer than non.
my YZ125 was wide open almost every day for 2 years without any noticeable wear on the bore. The vertex piston was the only piston I ever put in it, and the rings were changed once just because I wanted to. I wish vertex made a piston for us.
There is a big difference between a piston getting loose because of ware and a piston collapsing. Coating the skirts with friction/anti-ware agents WILL not prevent the piston skirts from collapsing. Large diameter forged pistons are more prone to rapid collapsing. The forged 125cc and smaller bores do not have as much of a problem as the 250 and 500 size forged pistons.
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I wish vertex made a piston for us.
call them up
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Sure seems like there will be a shortage in the future. There's a shortage already!
I'm telling ya guys, the combo of a coated piston on a nikasil bore wears alot longer than non.
my YZ125 was wide open almost every day for 2 years without any noticeable wear on the bore. The vertex piston was the only piston I ever put in it, and the rings were changed once just because I wanted to. I wish vertex made a piston for us.
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Are you saying in the future there will be a shortage of pistons for the 250?
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and how long does that last?
and when its time to get it coated again will it still be same bore.
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Ya pretty much. Sums it up.
The trend at Wiseco seems to be reducing stock on other older pistons. So sell out of every other os and not restock. Have to put in minimum custom orders. So far the 500 go through them fast enough we seem to be ok but our days are #ed.
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If the bore is not damaged or egged out, they will slightly overbore it and Nkikisil it back to 86.5 if you want. I belive the coating can be applied up to .3mm thick.
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So if I'm happy with my current porting and it's on 86.5mm I'd be ahead to get three Wiseco 87mm sized pistons and nikasil the cyl at 87 mm ?
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/Dezsled/e04627abd77a0bfa92ecfb5a40b3adea.jpg)
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DEZ that's a loaded Question. How hard you want to run, how long a stretch at what HP? This will all effect minimum clearance.
I have one plated cylinder bet I have run 6 pistons in it so far. Hit the top above the ports with a dingle berry and your good.
I do just enough to get a quick ring seal. This is not really a new thing just not talked about much. I suggest it in some cases depends on the cylinder and porting. Also after its coated you don't want to be porting in there it exposes a open edge for oil to penetrate and the rings to catch.
AND IVE HAD A BAD EXPERIENCE WITH A COMPANY OTHER THAN MILLENIUM OR US CHROME doing these. My Q cylinder that was out in Glamis, was ruined by leaving in the Etch tank too long or too strong a solution used. They told me it was due to Suzuki's poor aluminum Quality. It looked like it had been packed in a pail of rock salt when I got it back and LITERALLY sprayed my legs with coolant once coming up to temperature. We tried everything to fix it.... I have @ 1500 into a paperweight, between original porting cost machine work plating shipping all over hell.
So just be forewarned Im 50/50 so far. The way most guys run, a properly sleeved NW cylinder will easily IF MAINTAINED Properly outlast your interest in these bikes. That said plating is half the cost to a hundred bucks less than a Sleeved cylinder if you can do it.
I will DO it again on a cylinder Im happy with and like.
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Don't know yet John, have not done a cylinder for a 2 stroke yet, end up finding 86mm 86.5mm cylinders
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so what you are saying is if you have a 88.5 bore, you should get this done to help make cylinder last longer.
and it will be ok. how often do you think you would need to get this done. like every 4 or 5 pistons.
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Millennium Technologies quoted me less tan $200 for plating, they also aluminum sleeve cylinders, they only done my 4 poke cylinders so far, but i was looking when my LT500 cylinders hit 88.5mm having them plate over the steel to run 88mm pistons. The thought processes was at 88.5 mm the cylinder has enough meat in it to keep from going egg shapped, seen too many 89 - 89.5mm bored cylinders and are way too thin.
They claim on plated cylinders is that you should be able to run at least 2 pistons life as long the coating is in good shape. ( no flakes, cracks,)
http://www.mt-llc.com/ (http://www.mt-llc.com/)
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Really need a better piston, longer rod, taller cylinder etc to improve piston life.
Oh well thats all it needs...............
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Is it a good idea to run a tighter pis/cyl tolerance with the similar metals/expansion rates of the two parts?
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Mitch , look at the 4 the paragraph. He already answered it. Yes it will be better than Iron. But not as good as a cast cylinder with no liner. The liner wouldn't bear any significant benefit to the piston.
You could possibly run a tighter fit if the expansion rates were better matched. But in the end pipe choice engine load, lengths of runs all play more into the the piston life.
Really need a better piston, longer rod, taller cylinder etc to improve piston life.
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Jerry, question on your statement:
The heat transfer is hindered anytime there is a discontinuity in the metal between the surface of the bore and the water jacket or cooling fins. Even though the junction between a sleeve and the cylinder is a tight press-fit the heat flow through this junction is dramatically hindered.
Would the aluminum (NICKELSIL PLATED) sleeve conduct heat better than a steel sleeve, what benefits would a LT500 piston get from this setup?
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The hardness and decreased ware of the plated bores is just a byproduct of these hard plating. I have not seen anyone talking about the main reason for plating cylinder bores. Iron transfers heat at approximately 1/2 the rate as aluminum.
The engine industry had to find a way to dissipate heat from problematic areas in some high performance engines about 40 years ago. Yamaha began using chrome plating in there road racing engines around 1966. Mahle developed the Nikasil process for Porsche around 1970. Kawasaki developed the electrofusion process in the early 1970s.
As the power levels of stock engines continued to go up, the engine manufactures had to abandon the iron cylinder sleeves. The addition of power valves in two-stroke cylinders created more heat dissipation issues in the vicinity of the exhaust ports making plated bores an absolute necessity.
Replacing an iron sleeve with a plated aluminum sleeve will provide improved heat dissipation over an iron sleeve but will not provide the heat dissipation of a cylinder without a plated aluminum sleeve.
The heat transfer is hindered anytime there is a discontinuity in the metal between the surface of the bore and the water jacket or cooling fins. Even though the junction between a sleeve and the cylinder is a tight press-fit the heat flow through this junction is dramatically hindered.
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So in theory then, if a person cryo'd a wiseco piston....it should hold up a little longer right? Here's what's floating around in my head....if you cryogenic something, you are basically aligning its molecules closer together right? That's where the strength comes from? So if they are closer, wouldn't this change the size of the object as minuscule as it may be?
Heat treating always alters the shape of the part being heat treated. Cryo is just another form of heat treating. Any form of heat treating will not WILL NOT FIX THE DESIGN PROBLEM associated with large bore forged pistons!
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So in theory then, if a person cryo'd a wiseco piston....it should hold up a little longer right? Here's what's floating around in my head....if you cryogenic something, you are basically aligning its molecules closer together right? That's where the strength comes from? So if they are closer, wouldn't this change the size of the object as minuscule as it may be?
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Us chrome will nik your Iron bore. Yes you can aluminum sleeve a cyl and then coat it. Problem will be expansion rates of two different aluminums probably can work around this and possibly heat transfer due to the aluminum oxide formation on the two where they meet. I'm sure there's a chemical process that cod take care of this also.
An aluminum sleeve would need to be twice as thick as the steel for the lower ears to hold up.
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had my ltr piston coated by these guys
http://www.engine-machining.com/My%20Web%20Sites/EngCoat1.htm
the U.S. car manufactuers are finally catching on to this (behind the imports) and appling coatings on oem engines.
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Is it possible to have an engine cryo'd then cylinder nik'd? I wonder how much stronger it all would be, and how longer it would last. Ewwwww. Here is a thought......nik'd rings on piston.
1. Yes 2. ?? 3. No, possibly a moly coating, but the pistons we have to deal with are junk anyway. The whole point with a Niki'ed cylinder is change the piston and rings after a certain run time. Wiseco pistons kinda wear out fast.
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would you have to run a coated piston then, or will the pro lite work just as good.
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Is it possible to have an engine cryo'd then cylinder nik'd? I wonder how much stronger it all would be, and how longer it would last. Ewwwww. Here is a thought......nik'd rings on piston.
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Now you guys got me thinking about having my 86' done after it gets rebuilt. If you think about it, the money you would save over the course of several rebuilds, it will pay for itself eventually.
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Could be john, but it revved freer than a iron sleeve cyl
Mugen made something similar also
Sorry to Hi^
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maybe that not a good thing dez, thats why there arent to many of them.
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When a cylinder is cast for a iron sleeve, can the steel be bored out and a aluminum sleeve be installed then nikasil coated?
This is a trx250r cylinder that doesn't have a steel sleeve but has a nikasil kind of liner the term used was chrome bore. Not many of these around I was told
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/Dezsled/2ea8c175a247e9bd762bef0d10ff5171.jpg)
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I should have my 88 nic'd... I think I will after I've worn this last bore out.
With a cylider like mine, when it's recoated it'll be forever on the final bore? Or can they coat them to say like 1-2 bores before final bore? It'd probably be better performance wise to stick with the bigger bore huh? Also cheaper because that would have to be a lot of building up of plating to get a few bore sizes back,,,,
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NW sleeves will out wear any other sleeve I have seen 3-1.
We used to use them in our big bore sleds, we had one that we seized a couple times one winter messing with timing and compression ratios. all we had to do was give it a quick hone to clean the aluminum out after hitting it with acid and we were good to go. after about 5 pistons we had to go up a size. Do that with another brand sleeve.
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Northwest sleeve was cheaper for me.
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I just googled this
http://www.kenoconnorracing.com/Cylinder%20Sleeves.html
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How much does it run to have a cylinder nikasiled?
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The cryo is similar, I remember shot peening rods on chevys.
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Do they recommend shot peening any more?
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Tranny gears should be back cut, micro-polished then cryogenized.
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Can other wear and tear items be done such as tranny gears?
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Your wasting your money coating a qr piston skirt. They break long before they wear.
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Nikasil is awesome. My YZ came frome the factory with it. Never had it bored. Maybe had 3 passes of a ball hone thru it in 2 solid years of hard riding/motocross racing. The second piston I put in it was a vertex black moly coated high compression piston. I replaced the rings in it once about a year later and the cylinder still looked brand new.
I'd like like to have my LT cylinder nikasil coated when I reach my max bore size. I'd also like to figure out how to coat a weisco with whatever vertex puts on their pistons.
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Another benefit is the cylinder walls are super wear resistent with the niki coating, basically meaning unless you have a catostrophic failure, you can just change pistons and rings every few seasons. Also get any porting work done before you nikisil.
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...isn't very nice on porting bits.
Sorry for the two posts. Phone wouldn't let me scroll down.
My next bike will he a nikasil set of cylinders. 14 mile DM on alky and spray.
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Stock banshee cylinder with iron sleeves aren't nikasil'd. Cast aluminum cylinders get nikasil because its a super hard coating and can withstand constant wear. Most of CP Industries cylinders are coated. You can have them built with sleeves. Millennium Technologies are the ones doing the electroplating with the nikasil. K&T does some damn good work.
Think the 540 motors had nikasil at one time to keep from wearing and cracking the sleeve. Could he wrong on that though.
You can have you cylinder nikasil. Just have to remove all steel parts from the cylinder because the cleaning solution they use is caustic and it will eat it up. But won't hurt the sleeve because it will he prepped for the plating. Just have to have someone that has a diamond tipped hone and have it ported before the plating. I have been told the.plating
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"This coating allowed aluminum cylinders and pistons to work directly against each other with low wear and friction. Unlike other methods, including cast iron cylinder liners, Nikasil allowed very large cylinder bores with tight tolerances and thus allowed existing engine designs to be expanded easily." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil. Just one quote. Basically, it allows them to run big bores that last longer. It is worth every penny if you are building a drag bike like a 4mill banshee.
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K&T Racing is building my friend a nice 4 mill ported cub 421 banshee- THe top end is being rebuild and had to be sent off somewhere in the midwest to have the cub cylinders nickasill (spelling) plating redone.
What exactly does nickacill plating do and if its good for a 97hp Shee is it good for our Zillas? PRos and cons would be nice.