Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LTZ400 / LTZ250 / LT230 Quad Sports => LTZ400 / LTZ250 / LT230 - Engine => Topic started by: Kyle T on April 23, 2013, 08:38:11 am
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You know what? I just so happen to have a spare 87' 230EH motor lying in my Coca Cola basket. I was gonna keep it for spare parts but if you decide you want it, just send me a pm. It would come with all of the wiring and anything that goes to the motor or is attached is included.
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The 400 bikes come with real mufflers. My z400 is pretty quiet. A lot quieter than my 230s with the DG. I doubt that it flows any better than an open DG pipe. Especially if you leave the spark arrester in the 400 muffler.
I may try this once I get mine back together.
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Honestly, I'd rather it be quiet if I had the choice.
If an exhaust would make the same or better power and cut down noise that's what I'd be running instead of the Cobra.
I prefer my fuel to make power as opposed to noise, but if a noisy exhaust is the only way to make power then that's what I use.
Kinda like glass packs on an old truck...there's other mufflers out there that do a much better job scavenging and creating power and are a lot quieter to boot, but everyone thinks glass packs sound soooo cool ::)
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Quiet=good.
I'm studying the CRF and TT-R230s to see if they have similar engine specs to the ol LT230s.
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No need to worry about loss of back pressure, in that case it would only help power.
Not sure if it would be any quieter though.
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I'm a little worried that they might flow too much.
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You might save money if you used a stock muffler from one of the 400/450 thumpers. They would be quieter than the aftermarket exhausts, and should flow well enough for anything that the 230 engine can put through it.
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Yah, them aftermarket ones are usually a flow through. No wonder they're so loud! _^_
Universal with a simple custom header adapter and mounts. In like Flynn.
Thanks for that heads up. The knock went away, so I'm happy! +k2 D?
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I've got a DG pipe on mine, and once the header clears the engine, it's almost a straight shot for the muffler. It's been a long time, but I don't think there was much difference in size between the DG header and my stock header.
I suspect you could find a universal one that would be fairly easy to weld in place.
About the wiseco piston, I have know idea if it's true or not. I just remember reading that somewhere on the internet and wanted to give you another thing to check, if you still have the knock. Let the engine warm up and see if it goes away. A call to wiseco might clear that up as well.
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There are a couple stockers on eBay, but MAN are they trashed!!!!! And they want TOP DOLLAR!!!!! >:( I was considering using a universal one myself. FMF MegaMax, FMF Q4, FMF the "Q" FMF PowerCore 4 "Q", SuperTrapp universal, Or perhaps one for a CRF230F or TT-R230.
That's news to me J. My old machinist friend (who's been doing this stuff LONG before I was born) bored it for me. He always follows Wiseco specs for clearance. He did the crank too. Always the good stuff.
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I remember reading somewhere that wiseco piston will knock in this engine until the engine warms up. I don't know if that's true or not, since I'm still using the factory piston on mine.
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Ebay is your only option for 230 exhaust (maybe CL, if you're lucky)....I looked for 2 months before I found a cobra exhaust, but what I really wanted was the DG.
A year later I finally saw a DG for sale, but decided I didn't need it ($150 for a marginal extra HP? meh.)
I did see a few stock exhausts on Ebay when I was looking, pretty cheap and conditions varied wildly.
Also considered making my own exhaust, doesn't appear to be that complex (definitely easier than a 2S pipe).
Just need a pipe bender and a torch...
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They do look loud J.
SuperTrapp huh? Rarer then hen's teeth! I wonder if one of their universal ones would work, or a similar plate style from someone else?
Thanks CJ!
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A SuperTrapp would be a really good option. Only have a plate or two at the most and maaannnn they stay quiet. Glad you got it all squared away Kyle buddy!!
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The dg exhaust is very loud. If you ride in a neighborhood, I would avoid it.
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UPDATE AGAIN!
Used an acetylene torch and burned the stuff out. STINKY! Works though! D?
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I don't think DG makes the Xccelerator system anymore. Too bad. Looked pretty good, being an exhaust gasket to exhaust note setup. :(
I wonder if the MegaMax could be made quieter?
I'd really like the FMF Q muffler. They look quiet.
Thanks!
I'm pretty sure the washer out of place was the problem.
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Kyle, not a lot of options for the 230 as far as exhausts go!
Your options amount to stock, Cobra, DG xcellerator, or a universal fit silencer like the megamax from FMF, HMF, or supertrapp.
The DG gives it a lower exhaust note, which amounts to a quieter sound...doesn't really lower the db.
Cobra makes it louder, and the megamax is adjustable.
Oh BTW, glad you got it fixed up!
One thing I can't stand is putting everything back together after not finding anything wrong...and the problem is magically fixed.
...great, so that means it could magically break itself again for no reason whatsoever :-\
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Thanks Dez.
You damn right. O0
Man. The afro guy's afro doesn't show up too well against a black background...
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Great job dude
Nothing better than fixing something right
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UPDATE!
Good news and bad news.
Good news: IT DOESN'T KNOCK!!!!!!! +k2
Bad news: The muffler I planned on using served as a home for wayward mice! The sumbitch is clogged! Any idea how to solve this dilemma? I was thinking of tossing the muffler in a fire, and that that would burn the stuff out. I could also take the muffler off of my old 230E and put it on there, but I'd still need to buy a new muffler. Anyone know of a nice quiet aftermarket muffler I could put on mine?
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Got the chassis all cleaned up. Just waiting on the gasket kit and wrist pin clip to finish up the engine and put it in there!
If it runs smooth and quiet like I think it will: +k2
If it knocks: >:( F (pg) K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I don't think ring slap is an issue. I just put a new Wiseco in there and the piston and cylinder don't show any signs of even getting to know each other yet. I'll check anyway.
OK.
Top and second rings are between 1.5 and 2 thou.
Oil ring is between 4 and 5 thou.
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I'm sure you've already checked the valve clearance, but have you checked it while the engine is at operating temps?
Aircraft engines require valve adjustments to be made when the engine is hot, because the cylinder expands and changes clearances.
Probably not a big deal with the 230, seeing as how it has an overhead cam and no pushrods...but maybe something to check anyway?
Speaking of aircraft engines, my R1340 makes a very distinct knocking sound when the prop is turned over by hand, it almost sounds like there's a rod not connected to a piston.
Pretty loud too, when I shut it off and it slowly winds down from all that extra momentum from the 130lbs worth of prop, you can hear it in the cockpit...clunk clunk clunk...clunk.....clunk......clunk............clunk.................clunk.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the engine, and I've had 6 different mechanics that said they all do that, regardless of tolerances.
Even had an old mechanic from WWII that worked on them when they came out of the factory say they always did that.
Only explanation they could give me was the rings slapping back and forth between the lands on the piston (there's 4 sets in there).
It still bugs the hell out of me though!
They say that with straight rings (as opposed to a tapered cross-section), that ring slap is bad enough to cause damage to the piston if you run the engine with less than 25" manifold pressure.
Anything higher than 25" MAP (it's supercharged) keeps positive pressure on the rings and seats them against the bottom of the ring lands to prevent any movement back and forth.
The reason I brought it up (mostly because I'm out of ideas)...maybe it's possible that you're getting some ring slap?
It could be well within service limits, and might not be anything wrong with it other than that it's making a knocking sound.
Like I said, it's a long shot because I can't think of anything else causing it.
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Do you get the piston reference? ;)
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valve springs springing, valve retainers retaining lol love it :))
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UPDATE!
The bearing is cut that way, so it wasn't broken. Let's hope it was the washer...I'll find out when my gasket kit comes in.
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Ha!
Well, I looked this thing over, and the "****" roller clutch caged and misplaced washer was all I found.
Hopefully 1 of them is the culprit.
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If you still can't find the knock, might I suggest installing this inside of the engine?
http://www.b-quiet.com/ultimate.html
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Hey SB! How's it goin?
I e-mailed that guy on eBay with the new bearing, so I'll see if it has a crack in it from new. Upon further inspection, it doesn't look like a crack, more like a pair of relief cuts made on purpose by Suzuki. Only time will tell.
Yeah, if 1 ain't sitting there at idle, I figure that might just be my knock! I'm gonna put the engine back together without the clutch pieces and see what it does. Knock=Imma part it. No knock=tip it on the left side, add clutch, and test again. Knock=trace. No knock=HAPPEH KYLE T!!!!!
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i rebuilt a 98 trx450es. it was beat, petty much replaced everything but that one way bearing, looks like number 7a. doesn't make noise when running but when you kill the engine it will sorta knock. the bearing is gone and the engine also doesn't have compresion braking will free wheel down a hill. but it runs and drives good, and the owner didn't want to drop another $80 for a bearing. maybe that bearing beaning **** is the noise your hearing. the clutch hub number 1 will rock around.
just read your last post, #1 should spin free when all together, maybe that was contributing to the noise you heard
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E-mailed a guy on eBay that has a new 7. In his ad, he doesn't have a picture of the "****" side of the bearing.
I also did testing by putting the crank half into the case half, with the oil pump drive gear and pin, and 3-6 on. Without the 13 washer in there, it has a little bit of float, like it should. With the 13, that isn't supposed to be there, it doesn't float. Maybe, the 1 couldn't sit there at idle like it's supposed to, so it was turning, turning 11-23, and the transmission, unlike it's supposed to, so that COULD be my knock.
Man, this is why I stick to QuadRACERS. MUCH less complicated. +k2 D?
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I found something. I don't think it has anything to do with the problem, but I found it. The washer, number 13, was on the oil pump drive gear side of number 3, needle bearing. Hmm.
(http://www.partzilla.com/images/diagrams/suzuki/01/33/0014.png)
Holy she-ite! Number 7 has a crack in the CAGE!!! 0>me
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Here's what I see happening as it's idling.
Cam chain turning.
Cam chain tensioner tensioning.
Cam shaft turning.
Cam sprocket turning.
Rockers rocking.
Valves moving.
Springs springing.
Spring retainers retaining.
Valve cotters holding.
Valve stem seals sealing.
Clutch wheel bearings turning.
Primary clutch shoe assembly turning.
Crankshaft turning.
Connecting rod reciprocating.
Crank pin bearing turning.
Washers centering.
Crank bearings turning.
Oil pump drive gear turning.
Piston poppin aint no stoppin now!
Rings sealing.
Piston pin reciprocating.
Clips holding.
Seal sealing.
Valve guides guiding.
Spark plug sparking.
Rotor turning.
Oil pump pumping.
Pump driven gear turning.
Starter cup turning.
Starter clutch clutching.
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Hmm. Could be. I check NOW.
*elevator version of Grab Bag plays*
Nope. Put it on the crank after the oil pump drive gear like it should be, and it works smooth. One way clutch works well too. DAMN. IT. WTF is wrong with this thing?!?! >:(
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Could be the roller bearing on that clutch shaft.
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230S kick starter on a 230E? Looks like a LOT of work to me. Hey that rhymes...Probably be easier just to put a 230S engine in there in the first place.
It knocks pretty much from the moment you start it from what I recall.
Also, I'm pretty sure the clutch and trans are stationary when the 230E idles, so I don't think it's in there.
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I've got a 230E like yours, and the reason I was asking about the kick starter is because you can install one...not that it has one from the factory.
I'm out of ideas on this...does it knock all the time or just when certain conditions are met?
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It doesn't have a kickstarter, this is the electric start version.
Starter clutch works correctly. Slips when it needs to, grabs when it needs to.
Engine mounts were torqued to Zook specs.
Falcon Pawnch? No, haven't tried that yet. I figure that will cause MORE damage than fix it.
(http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31500000/FALCON-PUNCH-mapware3640-31563450-600-480.jpg)
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Does it have a kickstarter installed?
Starter gear disengaging properly?
All of the engine mounts secure?
I dunno man, have you tried to falcon punch it?
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Ah. I don't have any of that! :)
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well we found out after pulling the head a 2nd time and seeing a valve head wedged in piston, and seat was cramed against the injetor tip lol
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No, I just replaced those. I added blinkers so I could change the fluid too! D?
Hmm. How would I tell if that's my problem?
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i wonder if it could have a valve seat lifting??? i had a diesal truck at work that had a wicked knock when it got hot, turned out the valve seat was lifting holding up a valve for the piston to punch :-\
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check for ball bearings in your muffler, some ones prob pullin a trick on ya :))
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Possibly. But I had an OEM rod kit put in not too long ago by a friend who has been doing it for, I'd say, 40 years. Always presses 'em to the right clearance and trues 'em up.
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Has it ever been over- revved for a long period of time? The old 230's liked to twist the crank.
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Come on Greek, you know I can't sell somebody somethin then say, "Oh yeah, you gotta put this stuff in the oil or it'll knock real bad!"
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lucas oil will fix that knock. :)
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Greek! I'm tryin' to fix it so I CAN sell it! D?
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put some Lucas oil in it and sell it. lol
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Yes it is. The centrifugal clutch and clutch wheel look healthy. No burns or non grooved spots.
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i had a 230 quadsport( manual clutch) that sounded just like the rod was knocking, but when u pulled in the clutch it stoped, turned out the clutch basket was worn and the clutches were chatering, im quessing yours is semi auto? dont they still have a clutch pack behind the automatic clutch? 2c
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Perhaps the culprit is in another area of the engine, like the transmission or clutch packs?
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I did that 414. After I threw a bore and rod at it. I wasn't happy. I gotta find out what's making that sound in there!
Gill, you are correct. No plains. I'll check that stuff. +k2
I checked the cam clearance first VDCW. 2 to 2 1/2 thou. Service limit is 6 thou. Damn I says. I bought a head for it too.
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Worn cam or cam journal could be the culprit.
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I don't believe there is any plain bearings in that engine to cause a "knock" from oil pressure or worn bearings. Maybe something loose in the drive line ; clutch basket, primary gear, or even a loose ball skipping around in a bearing.
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If it all looks good including the rotating assembly - put it together and run it.
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I can't post a video, she's in pieces. _^_
Timing chain is in spec and has very little side to side play, and sprocket/crank are real healthy, with no chain movement. The tensioner seems fine, but they don't talk about how to test them.
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Whats the timing chain and tensioner look like?
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Post a video of said knock.
Its a knock and not a tick?
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Hey guys.
I've got an 1987 LT230EH with an engine knock. I've taken the engine apart and measured EVERYTHING that the OEM manual told me to, and it's all within spec. Any thoughts?