Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LT250R Quadracer => LT250R - General Discussion => Topic started by: All American on April 19, 2013, 07:52:01 pm
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Seriously? I need your number cause I go to my brothers house in Kearney all the time! You are just north of it right? Do you think you could take time to go over this quad if I bring it with me sometime? Right now I'm buying a lot of stuff for it, my way of saying there is a lot wrong, lol. I have a few more things left to buy before I get it ready to tune. I've only got four hundred a month to work with so it would be either later in may or June. Do you have one of these beasts?
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im in st. joseph. prob 4 hrs away
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Kirksville , located in north central missouri
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where in mo?
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Somebody took the extensive time to explain to me just precisely how to tune this carb, but I don't know which screws on the carb do what. There is like 3 or 4 of them. I am really wishing one of you guys lived around northern Missouri.
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It just takes time, and patience to learn. After a while, it almost gets easy.
Almost!!
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It just takes time, and patience to learn. After a while, it almost gets easy.
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That's some really good sh!t right there. Damn I need you to come work on my four wheeler. Lol
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Check your plug and piston first.
The plug may have a broken or worn insulator if detonation was severe enough.
The piston dome can also tell you what the engine is doing...but you need to have the pipe removed to view the top of the dome with a small mirror (it may be a different story with the 85-86 engines, I've never had a chance to look).
Sometimes you can shine a light into the exhaust port and look through the spark plug hole to see the dome, or you can use a boroscope with the plug hole too.
This is a decent site with pictures to help you read your piston:
http://www.theultralightplace.com/pistons.htm (http://www.theultralightplace.com/pistons.htm)
Other than that, it's very difficult to tell if it's detonating just by listening to the engine.
Mild detonation may occur and the only symptoms will be the eventual elongation of the case where the bearings are held, requiring case inserts.
You might go through several top ends before the detonation wears away at the case if it's not serious.
Increasing levels of detonation cause increasing damage....piston destroyed, head studs pulled out of cylinder, broken cylinder ears, crank/bearing damage, etc.
So, here's the deal.
If your engine is suffering from mild detonation, it will eventually require case inserts.
If you can't tell if it's actually detonating or not (no telltale signs on plug/piston), then your engine is slowly destroying itself without any indication.
Lots of guys think that these engines just eventually wear out cases because it's a weak link, but they could be having detonation issues that aren't being detected.
Seems like a losing battle, but the easiest way to fix the issue is to simply run fuel with a safe octane rating, that way you KNOW that the engine won't detonate unless there's something physically wrong with the engine (or jetting is way too lean).
It may cost more for fuel, but balance that out with the cost of case inserts and other damage that could possibly occur with detonation.
What's a safe octane?
It depends on a lot of things.
An all-out 500 needs a lot of octane, which is why they're often running alky.
Dune ported 500's (mid level) need race fuel, preferably 110 or better.
Stock/mild builds can run 100 octane and still be safe if the head geometry is corrected.
250's can't produce a whole lot of power without tearing up the transmission/clutch, but 105-110 is a pretty safe bet for running up to that limit.
Mid-level 250's (nothing wild, but somewhere between), 100 octane minimum.
A mild or stock 87+ 250 can probably get away with premium pump fuel, and if throttle is rarely used and jetting is fat then the prospect is even greater.
An 85-86 250 is the least likely to detonate, as the power output is even less than the 87+
Keep in mind that you can still have really high compression in a mild build, or lower compression in a higher HP build, but generally speaking compression (and effective compression levels) increase when you're trying to get more power out of an engine.
The stuff above is just a generalization to help you figure out how much octane you'll want to run.
So, you've got an 85-86 engine that could theoretically run pump gas without detonation, but that doesn't mean you should.
As stated before, the problem with pump fuels is their irregularity.
The ethanol they add to the gasoline changes the stoichiometric ratio of the end product.
So if you jet with pure 93 octane gasoline right to the ragged edge of overheating and detonation, then when you run 93 octane fuel with 10% ethanol you WILL overheat and/or detonate.
That's not something I'd like to take into consideration when I ride my quads...is this fuel the same as the last batch, or am I going to melt a piston today?
We take a lot of stuff for granted these days with regard to octane, since we hardly ever see a problem when we cram the cheapest stuff we can into our EFI cars and trucks.
EFI systems monitor engine detonation and adjust parameters to reduce or eliminate the detonation...the engine loses some peak HP, but it's normally not enough for us to detect.
Since the car ran fine the last time 87 was pumped in, it should run good this time too, right?
And if my car can run 87 octane and make 200HP, then why can't my 30HP quad run it too?
Simple, non-EFI engines cannot adjust engine parameters to alleviate detonation problems, so they have detonation problems.
Our quads are even worse off, since the head geometry is a rather poor effort that is often the CAUSE of detonation.
It can be fixed, but detonation can still occur.
I'm mostly going off what I know about the 87+ engines, but a lot of what holds true for them also holds true for the 85-86.
If anyone else can think of something to add or amend the above info, speak up!
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How do you know if detonation is occurring? I understand the concept of gas igniting before piston is at tdc, but I don't know what the effects are from it.
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^^ Agreed! Also, the oil you run also has some affect on the octane as well. Because the oil is also fuel, it can lower your overall octane level. Run Av or one of the many race fuels. I've ran Renegade 109 for quite a while and never had detonation issues.
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50:1 is not enough oil to provide adequate lubrication at all RPM's under load. 32:1 has generally been accepted as sufficient. Octane boosters might turn 93 octane into 94 octane at best. Your very best bet is to use 100 octane av gas. These engines are very sensitive to detonation so the higher octane really helps. Pump gas will change from city to city & station to station. Some pump gas blends use ethanol to raise the octane rating. Ethanol, like most alcohols can be corrosive to metal parts & damaging to rubber. Av gas has none of these additives & is the same no matter where you go. According to Motorgeek on here, depending on the ambient temperatures, you may benefit from mixing 4 gallons of av with 1 gallon of pump premium to aid in the mixing of the oil in the fuel.
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Bad moon rising, I've been using 50:1. The manufacturer called for 20:1. You say at least 32:1. Is 50:1 at least 32:1? I use bel ray mc1 or h1R, whichever one is available at the time. I noticed with 89 octane the engine sounds like dodo. I bought a tank of racing fuel and it sounded better. Now I'll just get the 93 octane at the pump. Is it ok to add octane booster to it? It was just an idea I had. And is bel ray very good for these old quads?
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I mean the bike does have sentimental value, but when you are facing the pain of spending so much, it's hard not to put a price on it! Lol
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ALL AMERICAN-- I hear your pain. You will always spend more restoring a quad than what you will ever get out of it if you sell it. From a dollar stand point you will almost always come out ahead to take your time and watch the internet for what you want built like you want...I have seen some sick zillas with full rebuilds and the best parts go for 2700 to 3600. Im sure they had 2 to 3 times that much in them.... however...
Part of the fun is building what you want how you want and the pride that comes from knowing "you did that. You built that.......Even though OBAMA will tell you "YOU DIDNT BUILD THAT" ---and budget usually requires it to be in stages.
Fact is you have an old quad and everything wears out and new better parts come along. If you dont have the money to build it what you would like.....than ride the hell out of what you have and enjoy it. my .02
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Traction on the drum roller is greater with slicks over knobby tires, more surface area to create friction
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You guys have a good point. It's just that it seems like everything on my quad needs replaced. Swing arm, a arms and 3 shocks, seat, and plastic. Frame isn't the best either. It's very discouraging when you see more in parts than what a built trinity for sale for 4 g's
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Specifically to that tuning point--My other quad is a 2001 raptor. My winter project was to install a bigger piston --686cc vs 660 at 12:1 compression. New pipe, open airbox and stage 2 cam. I had contacted CT racing for their Jet kit that was supose to be the correct jets for my set up at 5000 feet 60 degree day... After running it very rich for brake in I put in the "jet kit with new needles and 160/165 main jets. It ran better than stock' but was not spot on. I put it on dyno to get a reading--it was very rich---I put needle clip on leanest setting with jet kit and dropped mains---back on dyno. Now it was better but still too rich mid and top. I put the stock needle back in on richest position and dropped mains yet again to 145/150. Now were talking.... So my point is even good reputable builders (CT has never done me wrong) can only give their best guess as to what jets your specific bike needs--especially when elevation changes come to play. The dyno time ran 75 dollars--for them to do multiple test runs and I made the appropriate jetting changes based on the dyno AF readings. Now I know its right for where I ride and weather/altitude changes will be easy as I have a good baseline. 75 dollars very well spent. Results
The dyno numbers went from 42 hp 36 torque to just over 50. hp and 41 ft.lbs torque. They say their dyno is a little stingy and If I would have run dyno tires VS my knobbies it would have shown a few more hp. (is that true--does a dyno tire show more power---if so why? )
I was pleased as the raptor EFI 700 that they just installed dual barkers exhaust i, intake, and power comander--after its dyno tuning only made 48 hp 38 ish torque---the efi 700 made a few more hp down below 5000 rpm but my 660 with cam pulled max power about 2000 rpm longer....I would have thought both our machines would have made more power but it is what it is and they did say their dyno was stingy...what ever thats worth...Fun evening anyway, as its the first time I have ever had a quad on a dyno and the 8 hp gain from being properly tuned vs taking a "jet kit" and slapping it in was worthwhile.
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Tex is right. You need to know or have someone that knows how to tune your quad.
The first time you tune it after it's built can be a bear but once you get it done then it's a matter adjusting. you know you have it down when you can go the whole season on one plug.
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You need to learn how to tune your bike or you'll never get the power you want out of it, regardless of how many go-fast bucks you spent on it!
Buying a new bike won't fix the issue, because it'll still need to be tuned for changes in weather, compression, aftermarket parts, location, etc.
It might run good for most of the season, but what happens when it starts getting out of tune? Buy another quad???
There is no "one size fits all" jetting guide, as everyone's quad will need a slightly different tune, the most you can expect is a somewhat accurate ballpark figure that may or may not be safe.
Find a local guy to teach you how to tune or have them do it for you (make sure they know their stuff first!).
Nothing better than having your quad perform flawlessly knowing you were 100% responsible for that fine-tuned machine...
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Oh hell.... I foresee a Trinity blasting in the near future.. You're better off just getting yours straightened out, than trying to reverse the damages done by Trinity.
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Holy crap, that's a lot of things to do... I don't even know what half of it is lol I'm thinking about just selling mine, and buying this 87 model that is posted on ebay. It is the trinity built one with the big bore kit in it. Can someone take a look at it and let me know your opinion about it
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1. Your carb tuning is probably way off, which makes a huge difference in power.
It probably should be spinning tires in all gears on loose gravel.
2. If your plug keeps fouling out, your carb is definitely not tuned correctly.
You probably don't get into the throttle too much when trail riding, so I'd bet your needle position isn't correct.
Move the needle down into the carb one step at a time (that means put the clip one notch higher on the needle) and see if that fixes your fouling issues.
3. When you're tuning a carb, you want to start off with the lowest circuit and work your way up to the main jet, and you also start off with a clean plug.
Start the bike up and let it idle for a while, occasionally blip the throttle, but try to keep it at idle speed.
Shut it down and check the plug...if it's black you need to tune the idle (pilot) circuit.
Turn the pilot air screw all the way in until it stops, then back it out 2.5 turns.
Clean your plug (use a sandblaster if you don't have a plug cleaner) and re-install.
Start it up and see how it runs, check the plug.
If it's still black and fouled up, you need to go to a smaller pilot jet and try again.
There's a lot more to it than that, but it'll get you started.
Next, you'll want to test out the needle jet.
Use the same procedures as before, except don't run it past 3/4 throttle (if you can find a way to limit the throttle to that point, even better).
Check your plug visually and see if there's any soot or fouling.
If there is, you're rich on the needle.
Adjust the needle until the soot goes away and you're left with a brown color.
Now you're ready to test the main jet, and the procedure is a bit different.
Find a spot where you can run full throttle for an extended period of time (at least 10 seconds, but more is good too).
You'll need a new plug for this part (2 plugs at least).
Start the quad, get it warmed up by driving it around, then shut it down and put in the new plug.
Keep your old plug on hand.
Start it up and immediately get on the throttle and do your run.
Using the kill switch, shut it down without letting it idle, clutch it and make the engine stop right then and there.
Remove plug, replace with old one, drive back home.
Cut the threads off the plug all the way down to the base and look at the insulator (this is called a plug chop).
There should be a small ring of discoloration just above the base about a mm or two thick.
That's where the main jet leaves an indication of how the engine is running at full throttle.
Light to no color or white - LEAN (go up at least 2 sizes for piston safety)
Brown/chocolate color - PERFECT
Black/sooty - RICH (drop a size on the main and try again)
Now, if you have good eyes you can eliminate the physical plug chop by looking all the way down at the base of the insulator, but it's not recommended until you get some experience doing it.
You'll be buying lots of spark plugs if your main jet is off...so get the cheap ones (BR8ES, unless you have a resistor spark plug cap, then get a B8ES).
Later on, when you get the hang of reading plugs without cutting threads off, you can take a plug reading, clean it on a plug cleaner/sandblaster, and re-use it for tuning.
There's a lot more to tuning than that, but it's the basics.
Somewhere on the forum there's a big writeup on jetting, read up.
This also only takes into account that the rest of the engine is in good shape and it's only the carb giving you problems.
You could have all sorts of issues causing a loss of power...
-compression
-reeds
-air filter
-ignition/timing problems
-detonation/fuel quality
-intermittent fuel flow issues
Some are identifiable by how they act, some just affect the entire operation of the engine, some are hard to troubleshoot.
Start with the carb tuning and work your way from there.
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mix at least 32/1 with good oil and at least premium.
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Would the NGK plug with 7 in it be a step back? My brother told me the smaller the number, the hotter they spark or burn. Currently mixing at 50 to 1, and the plug is fouling when I ride through the woods. I may not be keeping my rims up enough to get a clean burn. What do you think?
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Ngk#b8egv is factory, I run denso iridium IW24. No perfomance increase, but if you have a plug cleaner the last quite awhile.
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What plug should I be using? My quad has a plug with the number 8 in it. My brother told me that I need to run a Plug with a 7 in it.
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I'm located in north central Missouri about thirty minutes from Iowa border. I've only seen 2 of these quads in my 30 year life around these parts. Lol
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your best bet with the jetting is to start rich and work down slowly till you get the throttle response your looking for. plugs are cheaper than pistons!!! where are you located? There are plenty of guys here that will get you on the right path. Maybe one of the top builders is close to you
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Even the mechanics thought the jet I ended up with was small. Before I changed to smaller jets, it would try to clear out but you definitely had to let off and then get back in slowly. Now it deals with full throttle a little better, but you still can't give full throttle till the engine gets revved up a certain amount. Is there anybody I can send this engine to so they can get this thing setup to get more hp's out of it? Is there any possibility of getting power valve numbers from this engine?
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does it clear out after a few seconds of full throttle? jetting may be off I think my wifes 250 has a 180 main in it but its a 90 and has a 34mm not the 32mm carb.
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I've currently got a really old fmf exhaust that's been on there since I bought it in 2000. I rode it for a month or two before I gave it to my brother for his car I wrecked. Just got it back this last Christmas and there are a lot of issues, so I'm trying to add more horsepower out of the engine since I want extended swing arm that weighs more, and today I weigh 205 lbs! 10+ years ago I weighed only 140 lbs! It used to be bored out bigger but my brother took it back to factory cc's. should I go back to bigger bore once it is time to rebuild? Would it make much difference? Right now the motor seems week and I can't just floor it, cause the engine spits and sputters. I've had the carb professionally cleaned, I've changed the jetting down fron a 205, down to 165 I think. I did that cause I thought it was flooding itself out. It is a little bit better now,but still not like it should be. My brother said I should be spinning on the loose gravel through almost all gears but I can't get the engine to rev up very quickly. I have to slowly get into the gas, I can't just floor it.
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Sorry westtex did I forget to mention I know absolutely zero about lt250's?
That's what forums are for, we learn from each other :)
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Matt has been messing with billet reed cages and also an E-Tec style powervalve for the 85-86 as well. Matt's only issue is that he is a one man show, and there is a hell of a waiting line. I'm not sure if he has any pipes available right now either. There are a few mods to be done on the 85-86 frame to make it accept the 87+ engine. You can also change the uppers shock mounts to accept the 87+ shocks. If you want to wait, get ahold of Matt at the link posted by BadMoon, if you want immediate change, get the FMF.
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Sorry westtex did I forget to mention I know absolutely zero about lt250's?
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In your guys opinion, who makes theeeee best pipe though? Is there anything better than Matt's?
For what? 87-92 250 it's matt Shearer's scp pipe, for 85-86 either an fmf or matt hatfield racings 85-86 pipe. The problem there is not a lot of development or parts selection for the 85-86 motor Matt hatfield at MHR is the guy to speak with about them.
http://www.matthatfieldracing.com/
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Ok, first off the 85-86 bottom end won't accept the 87+ cylinders because they are fundamentally different engines.
One has reeds in the case, the other has reeds on the cylinder itself, and that's just scratching the surface of the differences.
As for installing an 87+ engine in an 85-86 frame, it's well within the abilities of an average mechanic.
It's considerably easier than building a hybrid, though the modifications for a hybrid will also allow a 250 engine to be installed with the addition of a 1" spacer.
So if one were to do the hybrid mods to a 250, you could essentially run the 250 indefinitely until you found a great deal on a 500 engine to simply drop in without needing frame modifications.
The most that would be required for a simple 87+ upgrade would be modification of the front engine mounts and downtube.
Replace that single downtube with a 87+ wishbone, or two tubes on either side, would be all that's required, other than carb setup, new pipe, and maybe the CDI.
It's actually very easy work and could be done by pretty much anyone with access to a welder and some way to notch tubing.
There's rarely a situation where you can find "theeeeee best" pipe for a certain engine, as different people like different things.
However, when there's very little competition in the pipe department, sometimes you get a pipe that is so much better than all the other pipes out there that you can declare a clear winner.
For the 85-86, FMF is the best pipe commercially available (ie not a custom pipe).
For an 87+ 250, Matt's is THE pipe to have, not even a custom pipe will get you close without a LOT of R&D.
For the 500's, Jerry Hall makes a great pipe, followed by the Q pipe and AAEN, and Mitch's DCS pipe is starting to look pretty good too.
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In your guys opinion, who makes theeeee best pipe though? Is there anything better than Matt's?
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Why couldn't he just bolt an 87+ cylinder to his 85-86 bottom end?
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Remember '85-86 cylinders the exhaust port comes out at an angle, '87- up have a straight exhaust port, so it not just a bolt in and go....
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How much does a new motor run for? Like an 87' model? I heard they were the fastest year, but also the hardest year to get parts for. What to do. Lol
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I remember reading on the old site a long time ago about who Q's mentor was, it was in a thread that had long since been buried and was a passing remark.
So I did a little research about the guy that was Q's mentor (don't remember his name now, sorry).
Found a website selling one of the guy's pipes for a 125cc bike and guess what, it looked virtually identical to the 250 Q pipe, nearly a carbon copy.
I've never seen a pipe that's shaped quite like the 250 Q pipe, even on other brand quads and dirtbikes, but there was one right there that looked precisely like a scaled down 250 pipe.
Hmm, maybe it's the other way around and the 250 pipe is scaled up?
Who knows how he designed the 500 pipes, or if they were rough copies of another successful design.
Just saying....LOL
I will say this much, for the 87+ 250's, there isn't a better pipe.
On the 500's, it may not be the HP king but it's still a strong runner...there's really not a lot of difference between the top 3 contenders, but way ahead of your average pipes like the DG/FMF/trinity pipes.
I may not care much for the guy, and whether his design is suspect or not, they're good pipes either way.
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Forkin A.... That one ferret on steroids had that one wolf by nose & wasn't wagging his tail then!
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Anyway, back on topic you guys keep telling him to call shearer for a pipe, his bike is an 85-86 and shearer doesn't make one for them. All I know of is Matt Hatifield MHR, or an old fmf.
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I dont like either your teams. One like to steal coaches and the other cheats just saying Lol!! Just say this is a joke guys dont take it the wrong way. Hi^
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HMMM gues wolf packs are scared of skunk weasals -->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNoxVfN3t78
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Order the pipe from Mat Shearer.
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So vicious!!! Lol like I said a skunk weasel!!! And it's a poisonous nut.
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Watch out for badmoon though he's a missagain fan and those skunk weasel lovers aren't to be trusted!
At least our team is named for one of the most viscious, powerful and amazing animals in the world, not a nut -->
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Thanks for your service to our country. Scp that is made now is a little different then the old q pipe.Has had some work redone to it.But if your looking for one call Matt at 1-(760)-949-0017. Great guy and very helpful. I have one of his in frame drag pipe. I like it and it looks great sounds awesome, but if you have a 86 he might be able to make you something just give him a call.
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I just answered your question with Q's info I know none of the back story and have not done any business with Q. Mat Shearer I have spoken to many times through Facebook, he is a class act and someone I would trust for info recommendations or work. Q I know really nothing about other than he makes YouTube videos and apparently designed the pipe ill be running on my lt500 though Mat was the one who actually built the pipe.
Thanks for your service I'm an Air Force vet myself. And welcome to a place that is loaded with good guys and good information. Watch out for badmoon though he's a missagain fan and those skunk weasel lovers aren't to be trusted!
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w+ Thanks for your service and sacrifice for our country. I saw you posted that your bike is an 86?? The shearer 250 pipe only fit's 87-92 250 power valve motors, they will not work on the 85-86 motor. The FMF is best easily found pipe for them, I believe Matt Hatfield racing is building a pipe for the 85-86 motor, but haven't heard how they run.
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Shearer made both of my Q pipes and I dont have any of the cracking or fittiment problems and Matt is a great guy to deal with
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That's what I'm talking about. You guys are full of good information. I really appreciate the good info and contact number. I'm going to call that number above.
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Long Story short, the LT250 Pipe templates are owned now by Shearers, Q-(RK) could not afford the template cost with the metal stamping house, Matt then took it over, very smart move on his part.
Its the same pipe, in fact Matt up-graded some of the fit issues of the past, contact him, very easy to work with, and he stands behind his sales.
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well said Cliff...........
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Err, all of the above, and then some?
It was next to impossible to get him on the phone, and when you did it was always some excuse about how he hadn't had any time to do this or that, it'll be ready soon, etc.
Eventually you just give up waiting on the parts you sent him and buy another set so you can get to riding again...and that leads to "Well I don't remember you sending me this or that..."
At the very least you could expect a 6-12m wait for a pipe you already paid for (had to get enough customers to prepay so Shearer would build another run of pipes for him).
He started out small on an old forum, gained some followers, and started a new forum (QRHQ).
Supposedly he did pretty much every go-fast mod for the LT's, but in truth was just farming it out to other people and calling it his own.
He had a few specs that were his "secret", and nobody else could do the work.
The fan base that he accrued would have made him some real money had he been a better businessman with ethics.
He ran a pretty shady business, wouldn't honor complaints, customers often "lost" parts that were sent to him, and then there was SCAMMY, but that's another story for another time.
It got to the point that the guys who supported him were next to nil because he burned nearly every one of them in some form or another.
So he shut the site down and we were homeless for a bit until we all converged here.
Supposedly he's turned over a new leaf, but that's yet to be seen.
Here lately there have been a few customers he's done right by...don't know about you but snakebites don't heal very well on me.
So, instead of dealing with a flaky middleman, just go straight to the source :)
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Did he at least give you the reach around afterwards? Lol I meant to ask, did he just take your money and run or never return your calls or messages?
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I think with no lube.
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Wow really? I always thought he was legit. Like he probably had a store a shop and was successful. Funny! How did he screw you guys?
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The Q pipe is actually made by Matt Shearer.
They also haven't been on the scene for long, they've been out for at least 5 years that I know of but no more than 10 years.
You're much more likely to get shafted by Dr. Q than Shearer, just the facts.
I've never actually heard of anyone giving Shearer negative feedback, Q on the other hand has screwed over dozens of people on this very forum...me included.
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So this is the guy that makes dr q pipes?
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Matt builds the pipe your looking for. I don't know the story behind the Q/shearer 250 pipe, But Matt builds and sells it. I own and run one. Best pipe one my bike to date. Hopefully i find a better one, That would mean someone out there is spending their time and money to make a 30 year old machine go a bit faster. lol
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I'm a disabled vet who just bought back my four wheeler I had when I was a kid. I heard of dr. Q pipes way back then and always wanted it. I've never heard of this guy and am kind of scared with using someone I'm not familiar with. What do you know about him?
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You want to call Matt Shearer (760) 949-0017 he makes one one the best 250 pipes
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Thanks, I sent that link an email. Hopefully I get somewhere. Lol
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DrQperformance@yahoo.com
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I have looked everywhere for these legendary pipes! eBay, googled it...etc. <1>