Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LT500R Quadracer => LT500R - Engine => Topic started by: Frogzilla on March 07, 2013, 07:13:27 pm
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Jerry's modified top end
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/Dezsled/46cd883326101e59e05c5491ea736b54.jpg)
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Here is an early LRD ear weld similar to the pro-x ear rib for 250r's.
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This is how I did mine. Both back studs are the same as the shorter front stud. I used a piece of 1/2 inch 6061 and spread it out further to increase the strength. Right....wrong....whatever it is working so far.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/jeremiah25/91145107-9436-4299-BF13-F0FDF87B63C0_zps6l1lbfrf.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/jeremiah25/media/91145107-9436-4299-BF13-F0FDF87B63C0_zps6l1lbfrf.jpg.html)
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Mike did mine...used the same suzuki nuts from the front..
(http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz146/illson23-picture/ears001.jpg) (http://s822.photobucket.com/user/illson23-picture/media/ears001.jpg.html)
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You don't NEEd longer studs. You can use two more of the long nuts like the front of cylinder.
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I was supplied by Jerry with these. Both needed to be shortened for installation or engine rotation was hindered. Honda cr500 part.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/Dezsled/0d220207e1d934d3e983d83f8f3f7038.jpg)
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Good info
So after inspecting my stripped engine I am wondering if a longer base stud is required if I weld the ears?
If so what length and where from?
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Explain port timjng and octane requirements for us if you dont mind. This has been a very good read and informative.
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Would it be safe to run high octane on a stock engine and not weld the ears?
I would run fuel with a high enough octane level to prevent your engine and present state of tune from experiencing detonation. This applies to any cylinder, whether it is stock or highly modified. I would run your present cylinder until the engine needs bored or a crack appears. Then have the ears properly reinforced. Look at the cylinder before each ride. Dirt will start to collect in the **** area.
All of the LT500 cylinders do not have the same strength in the area that has the cracking problem. I find contamination in the aluminum in the right rear portion of the cylinders on a lot of cylinders that break. The contamination appears to be casting sand that washed out of the runners and collected in the area of the cylinder that cracks. This type of problem can usually be traced to poorly designed molds, soft cores, using sand that was not prepared correctly and or unskilled foundry workers.
I feel that the cylinder design was flawed. **** cylinders are the result of the inconsistency in the quality of the casting and the poor cylinder design.
High octane fuel will help reduce detonation on any engine that is having a detonation problem but may not eliminate it on a poorly designed or tuned engine. There is a ton of wrong information on web sites about how much compression you can run for a given octane fuel.
I have not found a compression number or compression ratio that is a limit for premium pump gas nor have I found a compression number or compression ratio that always requires 110 octane fuel. I think that the majority of the information that two stroke engine builders and owners are using is just folk lore borrowed from the automotive industry.
The majority of the automotive engines will run detonation free on 87 octane fuel. Put a turbo on one of them and add a couple psi of boost and now we need 93 octane fuel to run detonation free. Add more boost and now we need 100 octane fuel. Add even more boost and now we need 115 octane fuel to run detonation free. In this example the compression ratio or the cranking pressure was not changed but the octane requirements of the fuel went up as charge density, dynamic cylinder pressure and power increased.
This trend is also present with two strokes. As the overall design of the engine is improved, the engines ability to increase charge density is improved. As the charge density in a two stroke is increased, the fuel octane requirements of that engine is also raised just like when the boost on a turbocharged four stroke is increased.
Improving the design of the cylinder head on a two stroke reduces the engine's octane requirements. Increasing the power of a given engine usually increases the engine's fuel octane requirements. Advancing the timing, over restricting the exhaust system, and butchering the transfer ports will usually raise the engine's fuel octane requirements without out increasing the power.
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Had a few cylinders done in the past, they used thick wall tube, use OEM part
NUT
09159-10065, 10mm stud, cant remember the length of the stud I would have to check my notes, I was charged anywhere from $100 to $175 depending on who I used, I dont know what HPR charges, who ever you use make sure it is someone that has done many lT500 cylinders and has the equipment to deck the bottom flat, you do loose a bore also, depending on the welder I seen the base decked .015" to .020" requiring AFM thicker base gasket located in the store
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ive not weld a cylinder before but im a welder like jerry said the less weld the less it will warp i think the main thing is to take your time fiting the peaces in so that when u weld it it only takes 1 pass of weld and to bolt it down to a true suface and preheat it and it shouldnt warp much if any at all Im geting redy to do 1 of mine im a little slow but ill post some progress pics
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Would it be safe to run high octane on a stock engine and not weld the ears?
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Ive been told that detonation can cause the cracks around the ears 2c
Stress and strain causes metals to fatigue and eventually crack. Combustion pressure, thermal expansion, and vibration produce stress. Increasing power usually increases combustion pressure. Detonation can create some extremely high pressure spikes superimposed on top of what ever combustion pressure is present. The pressure spikes from detonation in a stock engine can be a lot higher than the peak combustion pressure in an engine with state of the art power levels.
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Here's a cylinder in the process of having the ears welded. Might not look the same for every builder. These are of a guy on facebooks cylinder he did himself.
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/2C40C6D7-4B1F-4916-9012-D10BF2109609_zpssony22dl.png) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/2C40C6D7-4B1F-4916-9012-D10BF2109609_zpssony22dl.png.html)
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/419A2253-A4F4-42F7-97A1-C36A4568C2E9_zpsnrialjiw.png) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/419A2253-A4F4-42F7-97A1-C36A4568C2E9_zpsnrialjiw.png.html)
The photos show some quality welding but it appears that the built up area was totally created by welding. Welding always creates additional stress, so always try to gain as much strength with minimal welding. I strive to move the stress plane above the reed opening and reduce the stress riser in the plane where the base nuts seat.
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Ive been told that detonation can cause the cracks around the ears 2c
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Here's a cylinder in the process of having the ears welded. Might not look the same for every builder. These are of a guy on facebooks cylinder he did himself.
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/2C40C6D7-4B1F-4916-9012-D10BF2109609_zpssony22dl.png) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/2C40C6D7-4B1F-4916-9012-D10BF2109609_zpssony22dl.png.html)
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/419A2253-A4F4-42F7-97A1-C36A4568C2E9_zpsnrialjiw.png) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/419A2253-A4F4-42F7-97A1-C36A4568C2E9_zpsnrialjiw.png.html)
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Here is a couple pics. Jug had one hour after rebuild. Get them ears welded.
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Anyone have a pic of failed ears?
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Can someone add some more pictures of what's been done?
I'm based in the UK and just in the process if getting this done
Stripped the jug yesterday, acid dipped it and bead blasted it
I was going to reinforce it above the top reed bolts, what else should I do?
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If you are putting money into your engine for performance and reliability, get it done. It is not expensive and could save you from having a catastrophic failure where a crack develops and propagates up through the intake tract. Essentially causing the part of the cylinder the reeds sit in to break off.
There was a picture of that failure on this site or the old site.
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Does this still need done if you don't run top motor mounts?
It's a good safety precaution.
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Does this still need done if you don't run top motor mounts?
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The gasket surfaces should be decked. The extreme heat of welding will distort the metal.
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I think Jerry will tell you that all gasket surfaces will need to be decked after the weld up.
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I don't mean to be dumb but I'm not sure what I'm looking for in that picture.
It's the two main bolts by the intake that hold the cylinder to the tranny.
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Go to Jerry Halls forum on this website & he will beable to help you!! He did mine & im really impressed with his work!!!
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just about ever builder can do them, just make sure you get someone that does them .
not someone that just says that they can. lots of stuff needs to be checked after it gets done.
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It was $100 for that one but I was having a bunch of other work done at the time. Just call around and get some prices. 500 Fanatic did mine.
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I don't mean to be dumb but I'm not sure what I'm looking for in that picture.
See the part of the cylinder where it gets bolted to the case, right next to the intake area? It is beefed up around the ears. The stock ears sometimes crack or even break off.
ball park what does this cost to have done---don't you typically have to bore the cylinder once over after welding it up.
Price will depend on who does it. And yes, the cylinder will need to be re-bored as well as decked.
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ball park what does this cost to have done---dont you typically have to bore the cylinder once over after welding it up.
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I don't mean to be dumb but I'm not sure what I'm looking for in that picture.
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I think that answered my question. I will have it done, that will leave me three bores sizes to go. Besides the Zilla money pit is starting to settle a little bit, time to throw in more cash.
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(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vQRSloXvaGg/T1rByg5QCqI/AAAAAAAAEWE/BlhhF4HxkQs/s732/IMG_20120309_184217.jpg)
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Anyone have a picture of what welded cylinder ears should look like?
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All 500 jugs will crack eventually. If you do any work, best to weld ears for insurance.
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Iv had 2 stock cylinders with cracks i bought the zilla with them... seems pretty common I guess....my current cylinder is welded no issues
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Is it necessary? No. My old Tudor's engine was not reinforced. However it did crack & was repaired again. My currant engine that was originally done by Duncan was not reinforced either.
I have it done now & I would recommend it to everyone. It does add rigidity to the cylinder. Even if you don't need it, it's like an insurance policy. It's good to have.
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Over the years I been told many different reasons.
01 The 87 don't have the frame support like the 88 and jumping the 87 can cause cracks.
02 Due to the more aggressive porting that is out now that can weaken around the ears
03 I would only do this if a bore is required are having a aggressive porting done, you will loose a bore when welding ears due to warpage, your cylinder will also need to be decked from the bottom to be squared with top and you will be required to use a thicker base gasket when assembling to keep port timing correct.
If I missed any thing I sure SQ-HQ members will add more.
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I got a queston about welding the clylinder ears . When do you need to do it ? When you raise the compression , if so what ratio/psi . Or does it need to be done when you start replacing the pipe and carb ? Or should you weld them the first time you need to bore the clylinder ? Does the big reed have more problems than small reed ?