Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LT500R Quadracer => LT500R - Body / Chassis / Suspension => Topic started by: Dezsled on October 03, 2012, 07:15:38 pm
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Thanks!!!
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drqperformance@yahoo.com I believe is his email....I'll double check when I get home.
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Hello guys, other than on FB (I'm in FB Jail currently) does anyone know how to contact Q to get a bumpsteer kit for an 87 Zilla?
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My problem is I need to get the tie rod lower at the spindle.Even if I lower the arms/steering levers I can because the tie rods are "maxed out" as far as the angle they go without binding.That's why I was wondering about buckeyes 500 setup as his tie rod sleeves seem parallel with his a arms.With the quad on the ground is fine but with front wheels off the ground and suspension as full travel as when I jump the quad on the track the tie rods will have serious stress on them as they don't swivel far enough :(
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http://www.maultechatv.com/techguides/bumpsteer.php
check this link out. Tells you exactly how to measure bump steer and how to fix by raising or lowering your tie rod ends.
It would be really easy to have that piece that mounts your tie rod end to your spindle modified to raise the tie rod.
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I think the idea is for the tie rods to not be parallel.
Looking at the modern bikes, the tie rods are flatter. I think if you make the mount to the spindle taller, you will benefit.
Recently there was an episode of Hot Rod Garage where Tony Angelo went in depth of how to fix bump steer on his fishtail Cuda. I need to watch it again.
I was under the impression you want the tie rods parallel with the controls arms or as close as possible.Buckeyes LT500 in this thread looks that way and he says he has limited bump steer...My 250 with the +2 A arms has ALOT of toe in/out throughout the suspension travel.Trying to reduce it as much as possible.The +2 arms seem to make the problem even worse.:(
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I think the idea is for the tie rods to not be parallel.
Looking at the modern bikes, the tie rods are flatter. I think if you make the mount to the spindle taller, you will benefit.
Recently there was an episode of Hot Rod Garage where Tony Angelo went in depth of how to fix bump steer on his fishtail Cuda. I need to watch it again.
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Old thread but have been researching trying to find the best bump steer fix for my 87 LT250R with +2 A arms.....Messed around and flipping the spindle arms maxes out my tie rod ends at full travel,likely the added control arm length...I noticed buckeyes helm joint setup on his 500 has his tie rod sleeves pretty much parallel with his control arms...Just curious if this is due to his helm joint tie rod setup??? Could this possibly be beneficial on the 250's?
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When I went to but a set for my 500 they were all sold out. Thats when I decided to make my own set at work :)
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I need a set of those shims also!!
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shame you cant put up a poll to see who'd be interested in buying them on here. you know I want a set. LOL
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Still debating on making more, seems all that purchased them like them, its that I have to run 50 sets to keep pricing down, and the bolts are not cheap either
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Pm Mitch about the shims. Not sure what's up the store being out of stock.
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Is that a different arm off the spindle? I have a 87 lt500r and mine is offset or has a bend in it, yours looks straight.
Im building mine now, just got it all back from powdercoat. Looking for camber shims now. LOL
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Where can we get the camber shims? they're out of stock on here.
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I never knew polaris had that set up! I wonder if the "pro steering" could be retro-fitted to the lt. It looks well built.
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I believe the Polaris Predator uses this same setup. It would be a good experiment for an LT.
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I found this bump steer mod done on a tecate 4, i found it looking for ways to eliminate bump steer on my fl350.
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Here's the vid of the bump steer with metaltech a arms/z400 spindles ... It finally loaded
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj97/mikeonanysunday/Mobile%20Uploads/th_trim68493EC3-0268-45B7-ABB0-9DBB3B71F376_zpsaafb1ae7.jpg) (http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj97/mikeonanysunday/Mobile%20Uploads/trim68493EC3-0268-45B7-ABB0-9DBB3B71F376_zpsaafb1ae7.mp4)
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Ok thanks Mitch just wanted to make sure before I purchased anything !
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Since 2005 Q brought up the lower spacer width to be 0.200 (5mm) on the old HQ and other forums for camber fix, its not till 2014 that he now says different width shim sizes are required after a machined spacers has been produced and over 50 sets sold, with not one complaint.
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I was thinking of getting Mitch's shims from the forum store and
I watched q's u tube vid and he mentioned something about there being
Differ t sizes for different bikes250/500 is this correct or not ?would the
Ones in the store be good for my 89 250 ? Thanks
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I think camber is determined by the spacer size.
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Bump for HiperFind's question.
Next thing on my list to replace is my Tie Rod Ends (All balls from www.rockymountainatv.com most likely) so I would assume putting Mitch's shims on would be the way to go?
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after adding these shims, what toe in numbers are the most stable?
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Just ordered a set for my LT500 to be! I love this thread, makes me remember that bump steer problem well especially after owning an LTR450 which handles very tightly. This sounds like a great way to correct it! Thanks for making these!
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Those would be Mitch's shims, and Q's stuff isn't on the web and my understanding is all prices are private. Pretty sure his email is in his last couple YouTube flicks. He's a **** poor business man said so himself so good luck with that route if you choose it.
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Couple quick questions....
Mitch, are these your camber shims? http://www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/index.php?action=store;sa=view;id=70
Also, where do you find the stuff Q sells online, or how do you contact him?
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No D, it will say lithium. It is in a spray can with a nozzle. It is a low-medium viscosity I would say around a 20-30 weight. I'll try to find a link.
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Here you go
http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=4091
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I'm a mocking instigator Badmoon what can I say. And according to Q you cannot safely flip the steering horn because something about the bottom of the spindle being stepped or unlevel.
I put a dab of synthetic grease on my heims is that lithium grease?
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And Q's billet arms, I do believe mount on the bottom also. The extended chunk is to make the weak aluminum stronger S~
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With some varying thickeness spacers you can get it to almost no bumpsteer, each bike would be slightly different on thickness to get almost 0 bump.
aka Chad's bike
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That's what this "copycat" site is for Mitch!!
Enough D...... Grk, on our race cars we run the same heims for years, but they are aircraft grade. A squirt of lithium grease before every ride and you'll be good. The theory that sealed are better is chit from what i've seen on race cars.
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most old school guys dont like running the open helm joints, they say that they will wear out faster.
mud, sand, dirt can get in them and they wont last.
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Nicely set up Derrick
(Y)
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My rods and ends were shot so instead of getting new factory ends and rods I got American Star Racing rods and ends. The ends are heims with what Dez called high misalignment spacers. I couldn't tell you if the tie rods help correct the bump steer or not cause I had no clue what bump steer was until I started rebuilding my bike. I hope that answers your questions as much as possible Glamis.
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Buck,
What are those tie rod ends?
Are they the whole tie rod or just the ends?
Do they fix most of the bump steer?
Thanks
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That's what this "copycat" site is for Mitch!!
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Thank you guys for all the pics, this really helps out the members here at Suzuki Quadracer HQ! Thumbs up guys!!
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Nice pics D (Y) When they are running straight there angle to the a-arm changes quite a bit threw it's range of travel and causes excessive bumpsteer and toe gain and lose. When set lower and running parallel with the arms they stay much closer to parallel with the A-arms throught the suspension travel range reducing bumpsteer and toe changes. With some varying thickeness spacers you can get it to almost no bumpsteer, each bike would be slightly different on thickness to get almost 0 bump.
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Mine looks pretty parralell with my a arms I think I have like .5" of toe out bump steer. Camber shims look nice too and they're secure as hell and really tight.
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/F1B699F7-6661-4121-A4F0-89400081B1E2_zpseuad55gx.jpg) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/F1B699F7-6661-4121-A4F0-89400081B1E2_zpseuad55gx.jpg.html)
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/09EF5D79-383A-4C6F-BA89-EFAE19CABDB4_zps2igeejfx.jpg) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/09EF5D79-383A-4C6F-BA89-EFAE19CABDB4_zps2igeejfx.jpg.html)
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/C20BC3AF-55E4-4779-8C7A-BB870F7315A7_zps4hhtopbx.jpg) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/C20BC3AF-55E4-4779-8C7A-BB870F7315A7_zps4hhtopbx.jpg.html)
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oops, i misspoke. I didnt mean parallel. I meant straight. Looking at the 450s, the tie rods are almost straight and definitely not parallel to the a-arms.
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Ok so on the 250's you straighten the tab out and mount it n the bottom of the spindle ear? use some washers to take up the gap?
No, just take the steering arm from one side and mount it on the other and vica versa. Instead of the bend going up, it will be going down. Mount it in the stock position.
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Ok so on the 250's you straighten the tab out and mount it n the bottom of the spindle ear? use some washers to take up the gap?
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Proper way to do bump mod on a zilla. Just take the steering arm and unbolt it from top of spindle and mount it to the bottom of the spindle. You do NOT need to swap sides on a zilla. It will look like this when done.
(http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae340/BadMoonRacing500/DSCN1700.jpg) (http://s985.photobucket.com/user/BadMoonRacing500/media/DSCN1700.jpg.html)
(http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae340/BadMoonRacing500/DSCN1699.jpg) (http://s985.photobucket.com/user/BadMoonRacing500/media/DSCN1699.jpg.html)
Would this make it worse? I thought the idea was to make the tie rods more parallel?
No,if you look at them stock the tie rod runs level, which is not parallel to the a-arms. Lowering the mount allows them to sit more parallel with the a-arm. It doesn't completly do away with the bump, but reduces it to a minimum. I've done the mod on 250's and 500's and there is a definate reduction in bumpsteer and an increase in corning abillity, it also won't hi-side near as easy. Q saying this is wrong makes me laugh, because it's how he taught us to do it on the 250's and 500's years ago on the old site. Now that he can't make money off it, it's wrong... Mitch you better keep making shims, i'll need a few sets soon.
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Guess its the latest one, on Pegs and bump steer, If you have a welder or know a welder you can modify your pegs way cheaper.
bead blasted, cut, dropped down 1" back 0.375"
from OEM position, with a Mitch Proof support gusset to keep from bending.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/LT500/DSCF0559.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/erbe03/media/LT500/DSCF0559.jpg.html)
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Two were posted recently
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Which video shows his brackets? Looks like most of his vids are
Q riding other guys quads up and down his street.
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I'd want those aluminum brackets heat treated
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Did you see Q's Video, his Aluminum bracket looked like it would lower or raise that tie rod ball joint at a hell of an angle?
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/ScreenShot021_zps7f9e01c5.png) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/erbe03/media/ScreenShot021_zps7f9e01c5.png.html)
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I played with a couple different things on my 500, pretty sure i wound up just putting the
Tie rod end on the bottom of the horn and re setting my toe. I know my tie rods are
Parallel to my a arms. My only concern was if a rock or something could more easily
Damage the rod end hanging below the horn like that. Then i looked at my YFZ and saw
The rod end was on the bottom too. I figured if it survived 7 years of abuse on my yamaha
Then it would be ok on the zilla.
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for some reason i thought you just flipped the tie rod so it comes up from the bottom
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Proper way to do bump mod on a zilla. Just take the steering arm and unbolt it from top of spindle and mount it to the bottom of the spindle. You do NOT need to swap sides on a zilla. It will look like this when done.
(http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae340/BadMoonRacing500/DSCN1700.jpg) (http://s985.photobucket.com/user/BadMoonRacing500/media/DSCN1700.jpg.html)
(http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae340/BadMoonRacing500/DSCN1699.jpg) (http://s985.photobucket.com/user/BadMoonRacing500/media/DSCN1699.jpg.html)
Would this make it worse? I thought the idea was to make the tie rods more parallel?
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the only reason Q is mad is cause mitch got his hand in his pocket.
you guys need to understand, if it not from Q is not any good... ::)
Q can always buy my shims at Wholesale and resell as his own
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the only reason Q is mad is cause mitch got his hand in his pocket.
you guys need to understand, if it not from Q is not any good... ::)
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Supposedly flipping switching them does not completely fix the bump steer to its full potential. RK does a few things to bring down the bump steer. He also does different sizes camber shims not to rip on Mitch's but the one size fits all. I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm looking forward to get the camber shims and bump steer mods from a q for a stock front end.
I take no offense at all, I have sold over 50 sets so farof teh Camber Shims with hear nothing but positive reviews, still desiding to continue making them, lol I was kinda done until RK video popped up today, si I called for another batch to be quoted, I will be posting if any changes should be made.
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Some guy on my Facebook group said that according to Q "madgoonracing's" just flip the horn to the bottom is unsafe and will cause the bolts to sheer. So from what I gather you should replace the steel steering horn with aluminum and not flip it... According to the legend in his own mind that is...
you mean Qs group. Flase dyno reports people copping his pipes and their best Iin the world. Untill he went up against hpr pipe and bike (Y)Also how someone should post this at our site since we have are own input On this subject. Come on. We try to help but he always out for a buck and smack talk2c
No Brian I mean my Facebook group, this guy was a member of Q's group but got kicked for apparently making a stink about a price quote Q gave him.
DP I have Mitch's shims and something that locks in like the ball joint is designed to do the way Mitch's shims do seems a lot safer and more reliable then having essentially washers pushing the ball joint out from the a arm to create the proper camber. This also doesn't address the space now created causing less threads to be in the female end of the ball joint. DP if you want to continue doing business with Q I'd suggest you keep your price to yourself cause according to this guy on my Facebook group he got booted from Q's group for making a quoted price public I'm pretty sure. According to him Q keeps all his prices through PM's only.
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He should start another site, like he was asked in the comments in one of the vids.
Cool to see he's enjoying what he's doing.
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I'll get ya a price shortly Derrick. Why do I need to figure out the camber ? I just want to buy ones already done. You say and you don't have to grind off the lower tabs yet you have to grind down the shims to get a perfect camber ? Which seems more reasonable taking them off a few times to get the right camber and taking the time to figure out what will work best or grinding off a tab and be done with it ? Not looking for a pissing match but honestly now which sounds to be the superior shim ?
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Some guy on my Facebook group said that according to Q "madgoonracing's" just flip the horn to the bottom is unsafe and will cause the bolts to sheer. So from what I gather you should replace the steel steering horn with aluminum and not flip it... According to the legend in his own mind that is...
you mean Qs group. Flase dyno reports people copping his pipes and their best Iin the world. Untill he went up against hpr pipe and bike (Y)Also how someone should post this at our site since we have are own input On this subject. Come on. We try to help but he always out for a buck and smack talk2c
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How much did that cost you DP? Mitch's shims are great and it's true one size doesn't fit all but you can take the 5mm starting point and grind material off till you get the amount of camber you want. It also doesn't involve grinding the tabs off the lower a arms.
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i thought you had to flip a tie rod end too.
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Supposedly flipping switching them does not completely fix the bump steer to its full potential. RK does a few things to bring down the bump steer. He also does different sizes camber shims not to rip on Mitch's but the one size fits all. I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm looking forward to get the camber shims and bump steer mods from a q for a stock front end.
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Would it be beneficial at all? It seems to defeat the entire purpose of doing the mod unless I relocate it to be under the shackle like the 500s I've been debating on picking up a 250 one to replace it, but its tough to do that when I'm saving cash to complete the motor for it. Or should I just get another 500 to replace my 250 one?
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I've seen zilla arms on 250's also.
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Hummmm not a fan of aluminum on my high stress parts 2c
From the pics that BadMoonRacing500 put up Im thinking that someone put a zilla horn on my 250 and left the other, because one of mine is perfectly straight like that >:( why could the PO of my bike not have been a Dumb ****..
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Some guy on my Facebook group said that according to Q "madgoonracing's" just flip the horn to the bottom is unsafe and will cause the bolts to sheer. So from what I gather you should replace the steel steering horn with aluminum and not flip it... According to the legend in his own mind that is...
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Proper way to do bump mod on a zilla. Just take the steering arm and unbolt it from top of spindle and mount it to the bottom of the spindle. You do NOT need to swap sides on a zilla. It will look like this when done.
(http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae340/BadMoonRacing500/DSCN1700.jpg) (http://s985.photobucket.com/user/BadMoonRacing500/media/DSCN1700.jpg.html)
(http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae340/BadMoonRacing500/DSCN1699.jpg) (http://s985.photobucket.com/user/BadMoonRacing500/media/DSCN1699.jpg.html)
The 250 you swap the steering arm from 1 side 2 the other. Instead of being bent up the bend will be going down. Mount in the stock location. Don't forget cotter pins!!!!
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Mitch aren't you aware that aluminum isn't for use on suspension components? There's a reason they didn't use that chit from the factory to quote the legend in his own mind! Lol
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How often does the OEM Steel Bracket Tie Rod Bend? If steel bends why would you want to go to Aluminum? Even High Alloy would have me nervous, maybe chromoly, this would be a project for SB Designs
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Here the front of my 91 with +2 a arms bumb ster mod done. Dont need camber shims anymore since I can adjust camber with upperballjoint.
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That is a pretty sweet looking front end. now i'm wishing that I had a LT500
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Here's my 88 with Mitch's camber shims. Alignment isn't set but you get the idea of the camber it gives the front end.
(http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag57/Buckeye513/null_zps8447b446.jpg) (http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/Buckeye513/media/null_zps8447b446.jpg.html)
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Stpltn250r, All you do for the bump steer mod is to swap left with right then flip the steering horns upside down so they curve downward.
And for the camber mod you could just buy these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LT500-LT250R-BILLET-5mm-SLIP-ON-CAMBER-SHIMS-Quadzilla-/300905417743?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item460f5c4c0f&vxp=mtr
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So the bump steer mod is to just unbolt the steering arms from on top of the spindle and put them to where they bolt underneath or do you flip them from left to right and right to left like the 250? Also add a shim to the inner tie rod at the steering stem.
And the camber mod is to add grind the tangs off the lower a arms and install a shim. Than set toe?
What is the size shim for an 88 zilla?
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You put the bolt the same way it was from the factory just flip the tie rod peice and bolt it the same way the bolt goes down threw the top. Just flip and bolt.
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That's what I thought you meant!! Arite ill check it out,, thank you very much!!!
One more quick question: Does the horn bolt the the top or bottom of the spindle after flipping? I had it on the bottom of the spindle and the tie rod on the top of the horn
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part number 24 and part 23 Chuckie
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Im taking about the peice of metal that goes to the spindal. It has 2 bolt that hold it on each side,then your tie rod bolts to it. You have to flip them from side to side so they run upside down instead of up. but they get bent rather easy.Just check to see if they are bent.That was the problem on mine. When i done the mod it blind pretty good. Then i got looking at the and they were bent . So i replaced them and then got new tie rod and my quad truns really good now.
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Badmoon since I have the ASR tie rods with heim joints can't I just put my outter tie rod on through the bottom of the horn/knuckle/connecting point on the spindle and get almost the same result?
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When you say knuckles,,, are you talking about the horn piece that bolts on to the spindle that the tie rod attaches to or are you talking about the spindle itself,,,?
Pretty sure you're talking about the little horn piece but just wanna make sure lol
And thank you!!
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I had the same problem with mine as your having.Turn out my knuckles were bent.Replaced them and got ASR tie rods and it turns super easy with no bump steer. But check your knuckles when your flipping them from side to side lay them on top of each other and see if they lay flat with each other or if their is any bends. After that is fine, you will have to redo or toe in. Hope this helps Chuck!
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Arite, I done what BadMoon said in the post above mine and I got a ridiculous amount of tie rod end binding. Anyone have any idear why it was doing it? I put it all back stock so now I gotta fight to get the front end aligned again..
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So my pro x American star tie rods mean I shouldn't have to do anything to correct bump steer? I'm running Mitch's camber spacers to correct the camber.
No, you should move the steerings arms mounted to spindle from being mounted on top of the tab on the spindle, to being mounted on the bottom of the tab. Look at the spindles and steering arms you'll see what I mean. It makes the tie rod run nearly parallel to the arms, reducing the bump steer significantly. The mod can be done on 250's also by swapping the steering arm from one side to the other, so instead of the bend going up, they should be going down, again look at your steering arms and you''ll understand.
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With everything bolted up initial adjustments completed w/o the shocks cycle the front suspension to see how much bump steer your getting. When I checked mine at full droop it toed in, at half travel it was toed straight, when at full suspension compression it was toed in again.
The z400 spindles didn't have any toe out going on throughout the travel
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So my pro x American star tie rods mean I shouldn't have to do anything to correct bump steer? I'm running Mitch's camber spacers to correct the camber.
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My metal tech arms are all heim joints. Where the arms bolt to the frame and to the spindle. 3 places of adjustment per a arm. The possibilities are ENDLESS!!!!
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If you wanted to be custom, then heim or rod ends would work. Just remember to buy 2 right handed shank pieces as well as 2 left handed shank pieces as well as the appropriate jam nuts. The best prices I have found so far is from Speedway Motors.
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Would heim joints help at all?
http://amstarmanufacturing.com/images/Pro_X_Tie_Rods_Yamaha_Blue.jpg
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European cars, like audi and BMW use a stud lug that is 14mmx1.50. This is what I'm using to replace the lower ball joint bolt. I coulnt find a hardware shop that stocked anything, then I checked lug nuts and it much easer to get and pending how patient the guy behind the parts counter is, you'll be able to find the length you need. I think I ended up with an old A4 lug
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Yeah, aside from clipping, or going full out custom frame, there's no real fix. Maybe I should just build a rack and pinion setup LOL
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Pretty sure they are stock tie rod ends. So far everything on this bike has been stock. Maybe ill try some thinner nuts. Not really a fan of riding with no cotter pins in there.
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Right, i've been thinking about trying to narrow the front part of the frame. Mimic the 450's some what.
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The biggest part is to get the tie rods parallel with at least your lower a arms. That will get rid of some of the toe in issues. The width of the frame is going to make it nearly impossible to eliminate all of toe in problems. Because the arms and tie rods don't travel in the same arc, the tie rods will push the toe out when the suspension is compressed. It's why almost all of the manufacturers are building their quads with such a narrow frame now. I'm actually working on a couple things right now to try and compensate.
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you sure they are stock? mine fit with plenty of room. Hell maybe mine aren't stock. lol.
I think the ultimate fix for the bump steer is to get the tie rods as flat as possible? The new 450's tie rods are mostly flat while the zilla's has a steep angle. Maybe modding the piece that connects the tie rod to the spindles would work better.
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Yesterday I put my .375 spacers on the lower ball joints and shimmed the inner tie rod ends. The combo of spacers and washers I used came up to about .22 in. for the tie rod ends.
My question is about the nut on the bottom of the tie rod end. There isnt enough threads left for a cotter pin. Even if I did only.2, there wouldent be enough room. What have you guys done? Lock washers and loc tite?
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I came from a long travel KFX450, am 5'8" and 190. I love the Zilla too. So much more stable for my style of riding (fast sand dune carving).... and all of this on stock a-arms and a stock swinger.
Once I can get the front end setup the way I want, it should be the perfect quad. Get these jetted right and they will start with one kick starts always!
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Even Mike, 500fanatic, said that if he had it to do over he'd just do a long travel setup in lieu of the YFZ clip he put on his hybrid.
He said the same thing to me about his hybrid but the reasoning was that the Zilla was just laid out better for a taller guy.
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Even Mike, 500fanatic, said that if he had it to do over he'd just do a long travel setup in lieu of the YFZ clip he put on his hybrid.
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Well that's a definite negative for the z400 spindle swap.... I was looking to use my extra Honda rims >:(
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I'm interested in the z400 spindle swap...using aftermarket +2+1 a arms & 16.5" shocks.
Dale ran set of Z400 spindles on his set up like this and he said that there was more travel with the OEM zilla spindles ovr the z400s.
If he'd care to chime in about the bum steer of the z400s VS the stock ones on the +2/+1 arms.
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So was just visually looking at my zilla front end vs. my yfz. the zilla tie rods are at a lower angle to the a arms as opposed to the yfz. The yfz is almost perfect as far as a arm / tie rods being at the same angle.
The zilla has a signifigant drop in the placement of the inner tie rod ends at the steering stem location. I have been nagging my buddy to get his kfx out of my shed for months now and now I want it back! LOL
Im pulling a lower ball joint bolt this weekend to take to a local hardware supply house to have .375 spacers made/ordered and a longer bolt as Iceracer had suggested to get -2 deg. camber. I usually run -4 deg. on my yfz. Ill put the shims in under the front inner tie rod ends and see what ive got.
I prefer more neg camber for reaction and steering precision, but run a cross country style caster angle for higher speed stability. Just seems to fit my riding style.
Im gonna keep playing with some spacer combos this winter to see what actually works and what dosent, but i have to say that the frame and a arm geo on the zilla is not the best starting point. Still better than the 250 tho.
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I'm interested in the z400 spindle swap...using aftermarket +2+1 a arms & 16.5" shocks.
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Nice MD2smoker. Looking forward to any light you can shed on the LT250/500 front end. I would also like to know the numbers on the z400 spindles.
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Yup, im familiar with. Camber and caster adjustments and how they affect the handling. Ive done a lot of testing with my yfz aftermarket front end to see what the adjustments do.
What im wondering about is the z400 spindles... Has anybody measured to.see if they improve bump steer? I had my buddies kfx 400 at my house for a while, I should have tried some measurements to see what differences it would make, if any, on the the zilla.
Thanks for the info on your front end measurements btw Rougue, once I get some spacers in hand, ill do the same with my trail zilla with shocks on, springs removed to see what I come up with.Its 33 degrees here in md right now, need to do something. Im kinda a nerd with a tape measure and an angle gauge.. Lol
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Camber mod will not impact the bump steer at all if any. The Camber mod can be seen when you are looking at the front of you quad. See the following for a diagram of Camber - Positive, Negative, and Neutral:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/flatlander757/Misc/camber.gif)
Stock Quadzilla's have Positive Camber which is not desireable. This mod makes the Zilla have 1 or 2 degrees of negative Camber.
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The 500 we rebuilt last winter has the 0.2 inch ball joint spacer camber mod and the 0.1 inch bump steer mod at the tie rod / steering stem connection. I posted previously that the tie rod was spaced by 0.2 inches, it is actually 0.1. Anyway, my Dad purchased a 500 without the camber and bump steer mods and I rode both machines last weekend on the same rough sand. I didn't notice an appreciable difference in bump steer. The turning and handling of the machines were very different, however, with the camber modded bike making much quicker and more predictable turns. (I especially noticed this trying to follow Q2W through the trails on the un-modded machine... Lots of push when turning.)
I do not remember seeing anything on QRHQ about flipping the tie rod / spindle mount on the 500, only on the 250. Does that help out on the 500 as well.
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So, does this mean that the .20 spacer at the inner tie rod ends is not enough to reduce bump steer?
Its my understanding that bump steer is directly related the the position of the ball joints, tie rod ends, and a arm pivot points being on the same plane with each other. As the suspension compresses , the arms do not follow the same arc as the tie rods, thus allowing the spindle to steer in and out.
Has anybody taken bump steer measurements with the z400 spindles ? Is be curious to see if it improves anything. I'm trying to figure out if the spacer, camber mod, and flipping the outer tie rod mount add up to a large reduction in bump steer. or of only the tie rod spacer and camber mod are necessary.
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I've found this way to work best on my Zilla. Swapping the steering arm to the bottom of the spindle mount.
I tried that, but will try it again and take some more measurements to see if I can reduce the bump steer.
Rogue,
On my 250, I left my shocks on when I did this. Your obviously going to get more extreme measurements with no shocks as it will allow the suspension to cycle further than normal......
Yes, I agree that I should take my measurements with the shocks on - no springs to get true measurements....
Thanks for the suggestions guys.
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Rogue,
On my 250, I left my shocks on when I did this. Your obviously going to get more extreme measurements with no shocks as it will allow the suspension to cycle further than normal.
I set the toe to zero at full suspension droop (shock fully extended)
then I measured the toe at 1/2 suspension compression and wrote it down
then I measured the toe at full suspension compression
From what I was told, the minimum toe-in should be 1/16" at the "Worst" part of the curve.
This is under the assumption you have "toe-out" bump steer in the center as most LT's do and from your illustration, it looks like you do.
That measuring process is what I used to check my progress when I was adjusting the height of the ends of my tie rods until I limited the amount of toe-in/toe-out when I cycled the suspension through it's range.
The key is to take your time.
Once I had it down to the minimal amount, I realigned to a 1/4" toe-in.
By the way, it still has some bump steer, but not nearly as bad as it was and with the camber mod, it has helped a lot.
Hope this helps.
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yea, i remember them being billet.
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I talked to Q about that. He wants to make them out of steel to reduce chances of them bending on a hard hit. I think he said prototype units were AL.
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I saw a video where Q was making a new piece that went between the tie rod and the spindle that was supposed to eliminate bump steer.
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I've found this way to work best on my Zilla. Swapping the steering arm to the bottom of the spindle mount.
(http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae340/BadMoonRacing500/2012-11-061444132.jpg)
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There is a horrible amount of bump steer with the stock Zilla. I've heard of flipping the outside tie rod ball joints, changing the mounting arms for the ball joints, etc...
Well I thought I would throw up some measurements I made this summer of my front end. I have the Camber mod on my 500, but I wanted to know where to set my toe at, so I started checking to see just how bad it is.
Here are some of my measurements: 12 3/4" travel from full droop to fully compressed (no shocks). Initial measurements.... Measured from center to center of ribbed tire.
Quad only weight; Toe In set at 1/8 inch.
42 1/8" Front of tire
42 1/4" Rear of tire
Full Droop (no shocks)
38 3/8" Front of tire
41 1/8" Rear of tire
2 3/4" Toe In
Level A-Arms (no shocks)
44 5/16" Front of tire
43 3/16" Rear of tire
1 1/8" Toe Out
Full Compression (no shocks)
40 1/2" Front of tire
42 3/4" Rear of tire
2 1/4" To In
3 7/8" toe range!
When you cycle the suspension with no shocks the Toe travel looks like this:
/ \ Toe-in full drooped suspension
| | Toe 0 moving towards level a-arms
\ / Toe-out level a-arms
| | Toe 0 moving towards full compression
/ \ Toe-in fully compressed a-arms
So, I wanted to cut down on the amount of toe out, so I set my toe in to 5/8 (.625)" under quad weight this summer.
Anybody have a true fix for the bump steer? I would like the Zilla front end to be like my Long Travel KFX450 Houser setup that is on my wife's bike. It has almost no bump steer.
I played with flipping the ball joints, adding washers above and below the linkage arm, but never found a good sweet spot. Different stem mounting points? Different spindle mounts?
I should look at this again in the next few days again to see if I can reduce the toe out some more.
Any tips guys?
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The 500 bump steer mod is to install a 0.25 inch shim on the lower ball joint, same as the 250. Also move the inner tie rod end up 0.2 inches with washers between the tie rod end and the steering stem. Then reset the toe in to a quarter inch. That's what I did based on information from QRHQ. Seems good bit then I didn't ride the Zilla without the mod. :)
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After reading the lt250 camber mod w/ the bump steer mod mentioned, there was a mod for the lt500 wasn't there?