Suzuki Quadracer HQ
Suzuki Quadracer HQ - Tech Talk => Dyno Postings => Topic started by: Mitch Keller on February 07, 2013, 06:16:34 pm
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Heck yes. There is nothing that promotes the sport more than sharing information, knowledge, parts, etc. If there was only one fast bike in the world who the hell would you race against? Nobody cuz I wouldn't race ya! +k2
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I'm all for sharing info. It can only lead to more advancements being made in designs. Who knows, maybe tomorrow you will be running a new pipe based off this info. You never know!
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Can anyone say what the mph was? 4th gear pulls?
They were 5th gear pulls......I don't mind giving this info until someone says I did it wrong.
IF you think it was done wrong..Then it was done wrong the same way for every single combination!, all the runs were done exactly the same with the shop owner operating the dyno and the bike.
I dont remember saying anything about it being done wrong. Just curious thats all. So relax. I honestly dont give two chits about what the pipe did on Mitch or anyone elses bike for that matter. My motor set up isnt anywhere near this. Hell for all I know it could be less than what Mitchs bike did. Lol. I sure hope not. Like Cworobec said. Thanks for the time and money spent on comparing the two pipes. You guys can continue your pissing match on how the runs were dun and whos did what. Have fun.
Chris my comment wasn't directed at you but just in general. I know most guys here do appreciate the efforts to clear the air on this info and to all who do your welcome. My No.1 point is just that the test was done the same across the board. I have the info I wanted.
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first off, i for one will just like to say thanks to all who went out of their way and dropped their own $$$ to shed some light on this seemingly never ending controversy.
east cost pipe shoot out would be great, to see if 2 independent tests will agree or disagree in results.
can everyone take a deep breath and relax, this doesnt have to be such a big pissing match. its just dyno testing of exhaust pipes.
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(http://i.qkme.me/3qhojv.jpg)
I'm done with pipe discussions.
Not like anyone cares about what I say any more than I care about what anyone else says, but this is all ridiculous.
What started out as a simple test to see how outrageously priced pipes compare to each other has turned into some sort of cancerous bloated study with too many stupid variables that everyone wants to see.
When someone asks what the best pipe to run on their LT is, I'm going to tell them tobacco pipes.
Might even dyno one and give it some "real world" testing too.
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Can anyone say what the mph was? 4th gear pulls?
They were 5th gear pulls......I don't mind giving this info until someone says I did it wrong.
IF you think it was done wrong..Then it was done wrong the same way for every single combination!, all the runs were done exactly the same with the shop owner operating the dyno and the bike.
I dont remember saying anything about it being done wrong. Just curious thats all. So relax. I honestly dont give two chits about what the pipe did on Mitch or anyone elses bike for that matter. My motor set up isnt anywhere near this. Hell for all I know it could be less than what Mitchs bike did. Lol. I sure hope not. Like Cworobec said. Thanks for the time and money spent on comparing the two pipes. You guys can continue your pissing match on how the runs were dun and whos did what. Have fun.
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Due to that we were paying by the hour and testing with four pipes and 2 quads took 5 hours and thats hauling azz to Git R Done, I would like to dyno with the old school pipes like the LRD, CT, FMF, Paul Turner pipes. Definitely would be a lot fun for more data to be shared on the site, and would be nice to meet up with other members.
Butttt only if Dezsled changes pipes, damn he was fast!
The faster the pipe changes the faster we got to go eat lunch!
The costs of dynoing those extra four pipes would bring the total tab up to the price of a Halls #19!
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My engine was done by a local shop "Moto Perfect"
http://www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/engine-builders/moto-perfect-race-engines/
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Guess I will have to get mine back up to par. Then it can be used with v2. It is a complete Q setup.....
Correct. And still the Hall pipe made more power on the Q motor than Q's pipe. Can you explain why Ken?
I don't think there was a Q motor there. Erbe said his was play dune port, but never said who it was done by. Anyway I'll wait to see the rest of the graphs. But thanks for the info and time spent guys.
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Due to that we were paying by the hour and testing with four pipes and 2 quads took 5 hours and thats hauling azz to Git R Done, I would like to dyno with the old school pipes like the LRD, CT, FMF, Paul Turner pipes. Definitely would be a lot fun for more data to be shared on the site, and would be nice to meet up with other members.
Butttt only if Dezsled changes pipes, damn he was fast!
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MY .02 on pipe marketing..well more like $ .0001
Most zilla owners are enthusiasts. They probably already have a quad with a Bills, PT, FMF,CT etc... If they are going to plunk down A lot of coin for one of these newer pipes they are asking themselves THESE QUESTIONS...
1) HOW DOES THIS PIPE COMPARE TO WHAT I AM CURRENTLY RUNNING AND HOW MUCH MORE POWER AM I GOING TO GAIN
2) WHAT WILL THAT HP GAIN SHOWN ON THE DYNO FEEL LIKE TO ME?...WHAT DOES A 5 HP GAIN EQUATE TO ON THE HILL? WILL I NOTICE A DIFFERENCE? does it take 2 hp or 15 hp difference to feel and be faster?
If I were marketing these pipes for a living I would be asking myself who is my customer and what does he want to know before he buys...
These pipe tests are fine but why have you not shown a graph of the BEST runs from each pipe all laid on the same graph and throw in some of the older pipes for comparison. I know I like my CT pipe MUCH better than the bills and paul turner I had. But HP and more importantly FEEL wise how do the newer pipes compare to the old....answer that and you improve your chances of getting the customer to upgrade?
Why have you not included a test of the older main stream pipes to show how much better all the new ones are......are thy 2,5,10 hp better. Thats what sells your pipes. I think all of the "new" pipe builder have missed the boat on marketing here. Dont just test the best of the best show how much better they are than what they have. Showing me on a graph may mean something to me or it may not..giving me a time improvement up a hill or over a course means more showing a video of two quads with different pipes run side by side to me shows me more than a graph. I personally dont know if someone can feel a 1, 2, 5 hp difference. I just dont know how much hp increase is needed to notice it.
Most people are not like me and spend a ton of money trying new things. different carbs reeds pipes etc..But I had tried different set ups...I have been very happy for decades with my CT built. Now I want more. I talked A LOT, to a number of good builders, read a lot of internet posts from years past, talked to members here that were running different combos from different builders, and I have seen some of the builders stuff run strong at the dunes. I just shipped my motor to one of these builders this week for carb, head,porting,intake, and exhaust. Too bad my schedule wont let me get old blue back together before april. Too dam much snow right now anyways.
any way my .02 on how to sell more pipes...or not?
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And why the f*&$ would you want to race a machine designed for off road use only, on pavement?? REAL World? S~
According to some it was to take the wheel spin factor out of the equation?
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Makes sense guys wanting as much info as possible when plunking down some bigger $$$ on a great new tech pipe.Every pipe manufacturer from FMF,PT and up advertises they have "the best" in one way or another so you have to have something to base your own opinions on.Ride someone elses ride,another knowledgable riders unbiased input and even some data on paper.We run MX and trails up here but by the sounds of it ya really can,t go wrong with any of the pipes tested as far as for duning?Really no knowledgable input from me as no sand around here.
The 4.5-5 sec pulls sound good to me...Was just curious because if enough pulls or long enough a hot pipe can creap the power peak up 250 RPM give or take as opposed to a "cold" pipe.
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And why the f*&$ would you want to race a machine designed for off road use only, on pavement?? REAL World? S~
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I'm from Brooklyn and if we had the East Coast Shootout, the results would immediately be thrown in everybodys face.
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Guess I will have to get mine back up to par. Then it can be used with v2. It is a complete Q setup.....
Correct. And still the Hall pipe made more power on the Q motor than Q's pipe. Can you explain why Ken?
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If you were to show a run of your bike with the HPR and overlap it against the others. It would be on your optimized set up vs. non-optimized set ups. Hard to say, see this is how they run... When your bike is from your builder & tuned. Vs. the others. My concern is you were mentioning that my "butt" dyno is off. And what I'm saying is when a bike is optimized for a given combination the results are obiviously better. In other words of course the HPR shows superior on your bike, duh.
Like I said since the info is out now, why not share it with everybody to continue helping everybody out, I thought that was the motivation in the first place "Just to See.." I recall. All in fun Dale.
I'm glad you like your bike Ken. I prefer to have the best info I can before I make changes.
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Guess I will have to get mine back up to par. Then it can be used with v2. It is a complete Q setup. Getting a new piston right now.
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Tested were two zillas in different states of tune. Predictably the results were similar on both quads.
A good pipe is a good pipe on either machine.
Mitch's quad performed best with the halls pipe.
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here is a easy fix, Tell Q to go buy a Hall pipe, If Jerry will sell him one. and then let him
pay for a dyno test day the way he thinks it should be done. then we can compare numbers.
from what I was told they were right in Q's home town, so he does not have that far of a drive
to do all this by his self. or tell him to get the dyno numbers from Matt, cause we all know he has some.
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Ken, you were invited by Mitch to test a couple times and didn't seem at all interested in allowing your optimum setup to be run for comparison...
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Ken, The optimum setup may have different numbers than those shown. The difference between the pipes is the point, not the numbers. Thats what those curves show is the difference on that particular motor.
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Can anyone say what the mph was? 4th gear pulls?
They were 5th gear pulls......I don't mind giving this info until someone says I did it wrong.
IF you think it was done wrong..Then it was done wrong the same way for every single combination!, all the runs were done exactly the same with the shop owner operating the dyno and the bike.
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Can anyone say what the mph was? 4th gear pulls?
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The run times were 4.5 to 5 secs
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P*
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Dales quad the V2 does seem to have a little more punch down low...Just curious how long are the dyno pulls each run?
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if anyone was copying anything look at the new flange for the Q pipe, sure does look like one for a Hall pipe.
talking in size wise, are you sure Q came up with that all by his-self, or was it when he pulled the Hall pipe off your bike Ken.
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Lots of butt hurt going on around here. I would be pissed if I paid all that money for a extra 2 HP.
S~
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I was late to the party when the great pipe war of 2010 took place. I remember pretty much doing nothing at work for two days reading those threads. #classic #somethingtobitchabout #obamagointotakeourpipes
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Dale,
Point is, it's hard for me to believe that you and Mitch are unbiased in this instance (Mitch is selling pipes & you have spent and incredible amount of time, money, & effort with Jerry - that is not unbiased and transparent, great things have come out of it, but you are not independant).
There were over 60 runs according to you guys and we have one hand picked to run of a V1 vs. a V2. There is no HPR 19 curve. There is no DCS curve. Where's the overlay? Mitch is now modding his pipe gonna make more runs and then post results. How is that fair unbiased results? Show all the respective curves. I can't believe it would take that long to throw together a single graph showing the 4 contestants. All "best of" runs. Or we wait till after the weekend to get those? Why when they are done now.
Dale I really would like to see you and RK shoot it out, run what you brung. He wants pavement, you want olds. Hopefully there can be a common ground. Me racing you, would be like me racing Mitch, there are certain physics we can't overcome. I would have to starve myself for a year or two and still you would have me beat as a jockey when it comes to the scale. On a similar full wieght duner, with another heavywieght rider I'll run anyone. my bike is a small reed duner, no big carb or drag porting or lightwieght stuff.
This is more about the constant discrediting of RK's work, V-2 shows up in your hands & now Mitch's/powerpros pipe is getting modded, that was the whole point of not wanting the pipe to get into other peoples hands so it wouldn't get immediately copied, Ala AAEN. Now saying there is only 200rpm more frontside curve, and only 2HP more than the V1, if I remember correctly the HPR on the 2010 runs only barely eaked out 2HP more peak than the V1. Point is the pipes are not far appart in total HP (V2 vs HPR) From owning both I call BS that the HPR is that much stronger in the frontside than the V2.
Also I noticed the chart said Mitch was runing a 440 main jet, on a big reed duner with an 9" element filter. I'm runing a 470 main on an small reed with a 9" element filter. Seems kinda lean, I'm sure after a number of pulls there would be a major drop off in power with that jetting.
In the grand sceme I guess it doesn't make any difference. Just people reading this stuff really need to use their minds to get down to the truth.
Ken, This wasn't a pipe shoot out. I haven't said one word about the Hall pipe except confirming it does make more power.
I asked months ago what the difference in V1 and V2. We were led to believe it was re-designed pipe. I liked the possibility of more performance and know first hand the best way is a better pipe. I couldn't get the info I wanted so I had to get it myself. This is what I mean about a transparency issue. I'm now satisfied what the V2 is about, I will be gracious and say it is an improvement over the V1..but as a result of my testing you won't see one on my bikes.
At this point I think Mitch should remove all the graph posts, we own that info, if questions come up in the future regarding pipe differences we can certainly refer to it and give it out as an example of what we found during our testing... you or anyone else can believe the numbers or not.
And we will wait for your "group" to post up any data you would like to support any other difference between the V1 and V2.
And for all to know.. I did share the info with JH, it gives him another example of shorter run testing on an ATV dyno compared to his, and gave him permission to share at his discretion.
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LETS..RACE...LMFAO... (Y)
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Agreed....lets see the dip that you are referring to Mitch.
How do you correct the dip?
You can see it on this Graph with the link below through RPM5500-6300RPM, Being able to compare with the other pipes really helps to be able to fine tune.
As to how I am going to correct my pipe everyone will have to wait and see when the DCS-5 comes out, the fun part is going to be correcting the dip and not to loose the torque # I have in the Low and Midrange section.
http://www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/lt500r-exhaust/dyno-testing-my-dcs-pipe-on-my-87-lt500/ (http://www.suzukiquadracerhq.com/lt500r-exhaust/dyno-testing-my-dcs-pipe-on-my-87-lt500/)
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Agreed....lets see the dip that you are referring to Mitch.
How do you correct the dip?
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Post the other graphs up!! They must still be in photoshop production.
:)
-T -->
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Why would you need to take measurements off other builders pipes to make improvements?
Is that an admission that your are intending to copy another builders work?
Measurements? Where the heck did that come from
First off you ask Dale, Mike, or call Benny himself, I didn't handle anyone's pipe or to even think of measuring anyone's pipe during the dyno runs, there was wayyyy too much work getting these graphs done.
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Why would you need to take measurements off other builders pipes to make improvements?
Is that an admission that your are intending to copy another builders work?
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so you dont belive in building a pipe and then having it tested along other pipes that work well.
now that dont make sence to me.
Think what he was meaning was he had his pipe (DCS) tested with other pipes (V1,V2 & HPR) and has also taken measurements off the pipes and is now going to make "improvements" to his pipe.
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so you dont belive in building a pipe and then having it tested along other pipes that work well.
now that dont make sence to me.
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So were all 4 pipes run on both bikes, I guess thats my question?
Yes they were
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Yes all 4 pipes were tested on 2 quads.
Other threads will be posted with those dyno graphs with the HPR-19 and the DCS, They will be posted as there own Dyno runs, we did not want to just post graphs and start the Dyno Pipe War again, As for myself the testing was just for research, cant fix what I dont know is broken that's what the testing was all for, I am still on the razors edge on making anymore pipes, the only reason for making the DCS pipes were for members that just cant afford $800 to $1000 pipe.
As for Dale, he will explain his reasons.
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So were all 4 pipes run on both bikes, I guess thats my question?
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D? P*
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I might have missed it, but were the Q pipes and the HPR pipe tested on the same motor? Or different motor?
4 Pipes, 2 Quads, All Dynoed Same Day 10 am to 2:30 PM
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/DaleQuadDynoHPR-19V1V2DCS-402-07-13-page-001_zpsa9c22657.jpg)
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I might have missed it, but were the Q pipes and the hpr pipe tested on the same motor? Or different motor?
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Dale, I think it's more like this. The two people with the most to loose/gain are the one's conducting the test. No suprise the V-2 is basically the same as a V - 1. The Hall pipe still rules & the the DCS-5 is getting a revamp. Wow, never saw that comming.
Again the Dyno proves, that nobody knows what their bike does in real life, and the true authority comes only from your side of the fence. There has been adequate time to post up, figure out what needs to be shown. I really appreciate that you guys were soo concerned about people's "Feellings" shows how big hearted you guys are.
Never the less, now since the "cat is out" we should see if the bikes run just like they do on the dyno in the outside. just to further support the runs. It will be the corroborative evidence that will validate all this fine testing.
What do you think I might have to loose or gain here,? I'm a rider just like you and if theres a better product I want it.
The point to me is that transparency is what the guys here spending the money deserve. These numbers show the POWER OUTPUT of the machine. Period. I've learned what that info means and then its up to the rider to put it to work.
I absolutley agree the real world PERFORMANCE of that machine is putting your power, whatever it is, along with your setup, gearing, weight, riding ability combined to the ground. A lesser hp machine properly setup can be faster.
I haven't told anyone to go buy a HPR pipe, they are kinda ugly.
We can race anytime in the sand. I just need to know the parameters of machine (s) you want to run so it will be somewhat of an even match up.
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So how long till the hpr 19 is posted? And all pipes were tested on the same bike right?
Heres the perfect example why the info is slowly being let out..
The first pipe shoot out two years ago resulted in some big name builders claiming not fair and that the bikes were under TOO MUCH LOAD for their pipe designs... NOW...already we have gotten adverse feedback saying not fair that the ATV dyno didn't put ENOUGH LOAD for their pipe design...lets see where it goes from here.
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Two zillas.
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So how long till the hpr 19 is posted? And all pipes were tested on the same bike right?
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Of course it does.
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So dose the HPR #19 pulls harder....suzukiquadracerhq
Lets race...lol
HPR19 will be posted soon in its own thread comparing V2
Mitch your killing me...but Ok i can wait..lol +k2
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So dose the HPR #19 pulls harder....suzukiquadracerhq
Lets race...lol
HPR19 will be posted soon in its own thread comparing V2
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Good data. Excellent work ERBE.
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So dose the HPR #19 pulls harder.... S~
Lets race...lol
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one good thing about all this, I can sell my v1 pipe for more money than what i paid for it. lol
LOL
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one good thing about all this, I can sell my v1 pipe for more money than what i paid for it. lol
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Easy to understand why dyno info seemed unimportant to the V2 crowd...Its the same exact pipe as the V1 (lots of dyno info out there on it) with the exception of a 1/4" spacer welded in the very front of the head pipe..had to twist it a little different to fit because of the new Flange spacing it out another 1 1/2". The new flange has a 1mm larger I.D., same O.D...they will interchange. The added length moves the curve about 200 rpm earlier which is better for most riders.
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The silencers are half assed on the Q pipes they need both mounting Points like that hpr does. Both of mine feel like they could fall off at any moment Rk dropped the ball on that design IMO.
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After doing 7 pipe swaps on dyno day one and 8 changes on dyno day two, the attention to detail on the Hall pipe was second to none. The exhaust flange is well thought out. No need for an exhaust gasket, the flange has it built in. The one pipe mount works.
Owner of the 6 month old V2 already had to patch the lower mount, he's a welder so he did a clean job. Plating was flaking off. The V1 silencer rivets were sloppy.
Before anyone gets butt hurt, these were things I seen doing the swaps. I took lots of pics and video.
damm the v2 already has a cracking problem, he must not of had it mounted right. :o
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Thats a beautiful site seeing those 3 pipes together.
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the v1 pipes were 695. the v2 pipes are 895.
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Thanks for doing this guys.
It appears the V2 is solid performer and does what Q said it would do. Comes on sooner and has more torque and horsepower through a nice curve. These 500's are awesome. Pipe, Porting, and Carb work nets you some a really fun action!
The slight dip after 7K is not that concerning for me since I am not one to rev the **** out of a 500. If I wanted that, I'd buy a banshee.
I am not sure where this $200.00 dollars is coming from? Is this for original Q pipe owners to make a move to the new Q pipe? There is no new V1 purchase option. At any rate, its a great pipe.
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V-2 Flange ..........................................................V-1 Flange .............................................HPR 19 Flange
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/photo5_zps6d0b07c1.jpg)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/photoer_zps60e1b4cb.jpg)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/photo_zpsd44a9d07.jpg)
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Surprising to see how similar these pipes perform.
Will you be posting the HPR run as well?
See how this one segment goes, and if Dale wants to post his Duner Quads Graphs, to be honest I wanted to see V1 and V2 graphs next to my pipe, like I wrote there will be changes to my DCS-5 coming up, some graphs the DCS is about the same , then I drop 4 HP but my torque at lower RPM just hits hard.
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Seems like the V1 has a better curve.
The V2 has a bit more power (1-2HP...AMAZING.) but it's more ragged than the V1.
Think I'd stick with the V1 unless that 7-7.5K dip could be tuned out of the V2.
There's something in the engine and pipe combo that just doesn't like that RPM range, maybe a slightly different setup would yield a smoother curve.
Either way, grk was saying that the V2 costs $200 more, so the gains from the V2 (2HP all around?) wind up costing $100/HP.
How does that stack up to other pipes as far as $$$/HP ratios?
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Thanks Mitch and all involved in testing,good info.Not the difference I was expecting from what I,ve heard.
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After doing 7 pipe swaps on dyno day one and 8 changes on dyno day two, the attention to detail on the Hall pipe was second to none. The exhaust flange is well thought out. No need for an exhaust gasket, the flange has it built in. The one pipe mount works.
Owner of the 6 month old V2 already had to patch the lower mount, he's a welder so he did a clean job. Plating was flaking off. The V1 silencer rivets were sloppy.
Before anyone gets butt hurt, these were things I seen doing the swaps. I took lots of pics and video.
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The amount spent was just about the cost of a Q pipe on dynoing....
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Surprising to see how similar these pipes perform.
Will you be posting the HPR run as well?
yeah i am still looking to see where The Harder Hit is at, thought there was gonna be something to amaze me, but I guess not.
well at least not +$200 more thats for sure
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Surprising to see how similar these pipes perform.
Will you be posting the HPR run as well?
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Was a group effort John, Dale did some insane traveling with his HPR-19 and a V-1, lots of respect for that HPR-19 the detail into that pipe is just awesome.
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thanks for posting Mitch, and taking the time and money to have this done.
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This was an out of pocket expense to Dyno these pipes, but we wanted to see was the Power Band Curve of each pipe, as for myself I see opportunity to start working on refining my DCS-5
Thank you Dale, Mike, Benny
Dezsled (Mike) was a hell of a Pipe Changer!
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/photo7_zpse9fcd987.jpg)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/DynoDaze_zps054e1ebe.jpg)
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This is some Dyno runs for the V1 and V2 pipes done on my LT500, 88 bottom end /87 top end / 87mm bore / Play Dune Port / 42 mikuni / 9" Open K&N / C12 Fuel / 927 28-1 / Tires Hoosiers Slicks
ATV Dyno @ BnP Powertoys
http://www.bnppowertoys.com/ (http://www.bnppowertoys.com/)
LOCATION 10881A Santa Fe Ave E Unit 7
Hesperia, CA 92345
MAIN: 760.244.1789
FAX: 760.244.1798
E-MAIL: info@bnppowertoys.com
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/DYNIOLT500FMKQUADV1ANDV202-07-13-page-001_zps3c8b6856.jpg)
Dyno Testing, Dales Dune Porting Quad V-1 and V-2 Pipes (Same Day as Mine) Same Fuel and Tires used.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z183/erbe03/DaleQuadTESTINGV1V2-page-001_zps628c796b.jpg)