Suzuki Quadracer HQ
Suzuki Quadracer HQ - Tech Talk => Dyno Postings => Topic started by: Rogue1970 on September 30, 2012, 04:30:25 pm
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thanks for the info. i don't think ill be messing with power valve cause i'm just trying to hold on. previous owner told me that my bike was 95 horsepower and could go over100mph. this is my first bike/atv, so learning on this beast is scary. barely hit the gas and your doing wheelies?Im scared to hit the gas because of that. i just need way more hours, but cant register trailer or quad without titles. hey, do you own a registered garage? maybe you could help if you do. the dmv actually told me to find a registered garage and do a leinholders title reissuance, then pay them to get them 'sold' back to me.....sad that government wants to control everything, but doesnt know how to deal wth anything out of their parameters. anyways, im a professional not a car theif, so this shady idea presented by the dmv lady actually would work. i wonder if she even realized that what she saying was the secret car thief formula.
A stock of the show room floor LT500R will make around 50 hp to the rear wheels on my dyno.
The formula for horsepower is:
HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5252
Torque and RPM were on most of the graphs. On one of the graphs peak Torque of 57 ft.-lbs occurred ad 6500 RPM.
Example:
(57 x 6500) / 5252 = 70.5 hp
This engine was not stock..... It had a big carb, head work, porting, and intake system and a HPR 19 exhaust system.
The sag or small dip in the power curve between 6500 and 7500 RPM after the power valve was properly adjusted, was due to the intake system's tuned length and porting not being right
Not saying the previous owner is wrong but 95HP seems like a stretch...Until you see what has been done to the bike,pipe,head,carb,porting,etc you really can't even get an idea.Even with some aftermarket stuff I think 60HP is more the norm...Pretty sure it would have to be modified to the max and even then 95HP is a stretch but I'm no expert by any means...You definitely won't be running pump gas.
Also post some pics of the bike in one of your other threads :)
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thanks for the info. i don't think ill be messing with power valve cause i'm just trying to hold on. previous owner told me that my bike was 95 horsepower and could go over100mph. this is my first bike/atv, so learning on this beast is scary. barely hit the gas and your doing wheelies?Im scared to hit the gas because of that. i just need way more hours, but cant register trailer or quad without titles. hey, do you own a registered garage? maybe you could help if you do. the dmv actually told me to find a registered garage and do a leinholders title reissuance, then pay them to get them 'sold' back to me.....sad that government wants to control everything, but doesnt know how to deal wth anything out of their parameters. anyways, im a professional not a car theif, so this shady idea presented by the dmv lady actually would work. i wonder if she even realized that what she saying was the secret car thief formula.
A stock of the show room floor LT500R will make around 50 hp to the rear wheels on my dyno.
The formula for horsepower is:
HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5252
Torque and RPM were on most of the graphs. On one of the graphs peak Torque of 57 ft.-lbs occurred ad 6500 RPM.
Example:
(57 x 6500) / 5252 = 70.5 hp
This engine was not stock..... It had a big carb, head work, porting, and intake system and a HPR 19 exhaust system.
The sag or small dip in the power curve between 6500 and 7500 RPM after the power valve was properly adjusted, was due to the intake system's tuned length and porting not being right
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A stock of the show room floor LT500R will make around 50 hp to the rear wheels on my dyno.
The formula for horsepower is:
HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5252
Torque and RPM were on most of the graphs. On one of the graphs peak Torque of 57 ft.-lbs occurred ad 6500 RPM.
Example:
(57 x 6500) / 5252 = 70.5 hp
This engine was not stock..... It had a big carb, head work, porting, and intake system and a HPR 19 exhaust system.
The sag or small dip in the power curve between 6500 and 7500 RPM after the power valve was properly adjusted, was due to the intake system's tuned length and porting not being right
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i know you inentionally left out hp rating, but as a new owner id like to know. mainly because legends get a little grander every telling. ive heard hp stock from 65-95 and top speeds from 80-110.
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The 3 graph shows the inconsistency of the Power Valves closing RPM made back to back over a time period of 30 seconds. The zig zags are produced when the valve closes at a RPM where the closing point is not at the optimum RPM.
If you flip the bottom line to time and not rpm it shows how quick the zig zag happens. Real quick.
Then you take it to the track and run it on timers, alot of times it will ET quicker with a little zig zag then with out.
Just a guess, but I think it helps set the bike / tires for a millisecond.
Makes you want to pull your hair out I know that.
Good stuff MotorGeek. thanks for posting
I have found it is better to error on closing the valve a little too soon than a little too late.
Looking at the graph and using a RPM drop of 1500 to 1800 RPMs between shifts, the optimum shift point would be around 7700 to 8000 RPM.. Shifting at 7700 to 8000 RPM will drop the RPM to the 6000 to 6500 RPM range between shifts. If the optimum closing point is 5700 RPM on this engine package, closing the valve 500 hundred RPM too soon will not affect the portion of the power band you are using. If you close the valve 500 too late the power will be affected in the portion of the power band that you are using.
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The 3 graph shows the inconsistency of the Power Valves closing RPM made back to back over a time period of 30 seconds. The zig zags are produced when the valve closes at a RPM where the closing point is not at the optimum RPM.
If you flip the bottom line to time and not rpm it shows how quick the zig zag happens. Real quick.
Then you take it to the track and run it on timers, alot of times it will ET quicker with a little zig zag then with out.
Just a guess, but I think it helps set the bike / tires for a millisecond.
Makes you want to pull your hair out I know that.
Good stuff MotorGeek. thanks for posting
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Yes I think you understand what I was attempting to say:
Turning the dial one turn will change the PV closing RPM about 500 to 600 RPM from what ever the closing RPM was before the dial was turned
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I don't think I communicated my question clearly, please let me rephrase it.
So Q recommends that his PV is adjusted to 1.75 turns CCW which would equate to his PV closing at 875 RPM?
And if someone recommends 1 turn CCW with their set up then the power closes at 500 RPM?
I was thinking more like;
1 turn CCW sets the PV closure at approx. 5,500 RPM
1.5 Turns sets it at approx. 6,000 RPM
2 turns sets it at approx. X,XXX RPM
I'm sure I'm missing something here.
Thanks
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Ok so for those of us who do not have or can afford to make dyno runs to adjust our power valves.
Is there a guideline for how many turns or portions thereof that equates to X RPM?
For example:
.5 Turn is approx X RPM
1 turn is approximately X RPM?
1.5 Turns is approx X
Thanks for the real information on the PV Jerry, lots of great insights.
I did not pay close attention to the actual RPM change per turn of the dial but my memory says it was about 500 to 600 RPM change per 1 turn of the dial.
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Ok so for those of us who do not have or can afford to make dyno runs to adjust our power valves.
Is there a guideline for how many turns or portions thereof that equates to X RPM?
For example:
.5 Turn is approx X RPM
1 turn is approximately X RPM?
1.5 Turns is approx X
Thanks for the real information on the PV Jerry, lots of great insights.
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Jerry, I guessing these test are done with your #19? Maybe I am not seeing things correctly, But looking at the first graph (Green and Red) the Red with P/V open and was making more Bottom end and good Mid and then signs of sharply, Then I think Mat was correct on that he stated more bottom end with more spring tension, But now I understand from your graphs is you need to be in both worlds, have the correct spring tension to take full advantage of the power band of any P/V quad with a performance exhaust, Any chance you could have someone with your guidance take a video to show the correct adjustment to power valve and RPM, maybe bug Dale? Again Thank you for the Info.
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The 3 graph shows the inconsistency of the Power Valves closing RPM made back to back over a time period of 30 seconds. The zig zags are produced when the valve closes at a RPM where the closing point is not at the optimum RPM.
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Rogue1970's cylinder was a small reed.
The easiest method to find the RPM where the power valve needs to close on the LT250s and LT500s is to make a dyno run with the valve fully open through the whole RPM range and then make a dyno run through the whole RPM range with it fully closed. The point where the two graphs intersect is where the power valve needs to close.
I do not agree with Mat Shearers theory. There is only one optimum closing RPM on the LT power valves. You cannot arbitrarily close it or hold it open to build a smooth power band. If you open or close it too early or too late it will make a distinct zig zag in the power curve. If you close the valve before the intersection point (RPM) on the graph, you loose power from that RPM to the RPM where the two graphs intersect. If you leave the valve open past the intersection RPM of the two graphs, you loose power from the intersection point of the two graphs to the RPM where you finally close the power valve.
The 1st graph shows:
Green line a run with the PV closed the whole run.
Red line a run made with the PV fully open to 7600 RPM.
The two graphs intersect at approximately 5700 RPM.
The 2nd graph shows:
Blue line is the optimum setting where the valve closes at approximately 5700 RPM.
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Hey Jerry, one item missing what year cylinder was he testing? 87 or 88 and up? Now I would like to go back and re dyno myself with different Spring tensions, when I did testing my PV was set at 2 turns, due that Mat Shearer stated that his testing the longer the P/V stayed open the more low end / mid torque, I guess is come down to how the pipe design is to work with the P/V, Again Thank You Jerry for your time and patience for doing this.
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We are on the same page, you just said it way better.
One turn is 5700rpm on his bike, with that oil, at normal temp. It was the best rpm for his setup. Take the same bike and put a FMF or PT pipe on and one turn will not dyno well. In short it's not a good idea just to count turns. Clean the PV window, get a induction tach and set it to close by rpm. As a base, I'd close the PV on low rpm pipes at 4000rpm and high rpm pipes at 5500rpm. Fine tune from that.
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..........A setting of 1 turn (5700rpm) with a PT pipe would have a dyno run that looked like 1.25 turn with a Q pipe. You held the PV open to long
I am not am not quite sure of what you are asking.
Different pipes may need to close at different RPMs to optimize the power curve, but one turn on a particular engine will always close the valve at the same RPM regardless of of the pipe that is installed.
The effect that the Suzuki power valve has on the power characteristic is for a completely different reason as the effect the the power valves that change the port timing and blow-down area on most two stroke engines.
The Suzuki power valve changes the helmholtz resonance. The engine thinks the engine has one exhaust system at the lower RPM and then switches to a shorter exhaust system when the valve closes.
Power valves that change the timing and port area have multiple reasons that they change the power characteristics. The change in port height (port duration) affects the tuned length of the pipe.
A Low port (short duration exhaust port) makes the engine think that the pipe is long and turned to produce power at a low RPM. As the power valve raises, the timing edge of the exhaust port makes the engine thinks the pipe is being shortened and will produce more power at the higher RPMs.
At this point of comparison of the Suzuki PV and timing/area type valves, the valves effectively change the length of the exhaust system.
The Suzuki valve essentially changes exhaust systems on a given porting scheme when the valve closes. It puts a torque pipe on an over ported cylinder at lower RPMs and puts a short pipe at power valve closing on a cylinder that is hopefully ported to match the high RPM pipe. The Suzuki valve will not perform as much magic on the power curve as a timing/area type valve.
The power valves that change the timing and area of the exhaust port more closely simulates a mildly ported cylinder matched up with a long torque pipe at lower RPMs. As the RPM increases the porting is gradually increased to match an exhaust system that is gradually being shortened. When this type of valve is operated properly, a much wider power band with more peak power can be obtained.
Regardless of which type of valve is used, the basic pipe design has the major influence on the power characteristic of the engine. You cannot put an ultra high RPM pipe on an engine with a LT type power valve and try to set the valve to produce a ton of power at the lower RPMs as believed by so many engine and pipe builders. Proper testing will make this fact very obvious.
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So what is the consensus on this 1 turn?
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I do not know what the stock closing RPM was.
You are right, every engine's power valve governor assembly operates slightly different. Transmission oil viscosity affects the closing RPM. We see different closing RPMs on the dyno when doing many back to back runs due to the change in transmission oil temperature.
The optimum closing RPM does need to change with different pipe and porting combinations. 5700 RPM was the optimum point for this porting/pipe combination.
If you look closely at the 1st dyno graph one can observe where the two dyno curves cross at about 5700 RPM. One graph the power valve was closed the whole run and the others the power valve stayed open until 7300 and 7600 RPM.
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Wasn't the factory setting 4000rpm?
I use to set mine with a quick rpm induction clip on the plug wire. Slowly rev the motor and watch the sight glass on the PV to close. Just lock it down at 4000rpm. Never did count turns. Don't see how any two would be the same. How clean your PV is, how old the spring is, what start point to turn..
Wouldn't the PV setting move with the pipe? So a 5700rpm close wouldn't be best for someone that runs a FMF, PT or non high rpm pipe.
A setting of 1 turn (5700rpm) with a PT pipe would have a dyno run that looked like 1.25 turn with a Q pipe. You held the PV open to long
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P*
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Can't wait to see this
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I had posted this information on a few sites, so I thought I would put it up here.
Alright, I've read all over about the power valve issue. Does it work? Does it make a difference? Any dyno hard results? etc., on and on.
Well I have some dyno charts for my setup and we specifically were playing around with the PV setting. From blocked off thru 1.75CC (counter clockwise).
The following charts are for a HPR#19, taper bored TM38, dune porting, open intake, VF2 reeds. The charts show torque and I will not post Q vs HPR pipe HP numbers because those always get into pissing matches.
I just wanted to show that on the 500, the PV does impact your power curve. I've highlighted all curves since they are hard to read if I didn't.
FYI... I've heard and it makes sense to me that based on oil temp, the PV will open at different points. My test results for my engine seemed to like 1CC PV setting when running the Hall HPR#19.
These are Torque numbers only as I don't want these threads to start any HP wars.
PV blocked closed:
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PVDisabled.jpg)
PV set to 1.25CC (Q pipe recommended setting):
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV125.jpg)
PV set to 1.50CC:
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV150.jpg)
PV set to 1.75CC:
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV175.jpg)
PV set to stock 1.00CC (best for my bike):
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV100.jpg)
So in short, if your a drag racer running only WO, then blocking it off closed won't impact top end RPM / Power.
If you do anything else, it can greatly impact your power below 6k RPM.... you can even screw up and set it to 1.75CC or more and it will kill your top end.
EDIT 10/16 - Adding run info.
These were all from Hall's dyno in Phoenix, AZ on June 27th, 2011.
My Setup:
500 Fanatic - HRD porting (HRD rebuild completed 8/2010), Ears re-inforced
Head - Squish fixed & o-ringed
Trans - M102
B8ES .020 gap plug w/5k plug cap
OEM stator, coil, ECU, stock timing
HPR#19 Pipe
VP110 w/927 @ 20:1
TM38 bored to 41mm carb w/640 main
Open Intake w/ 4x8 Uni Dual Layer w/Outerwear
Q cut piston
Vforce2 reeds
Dyno Info: (Dyno tires used, Absolute Pressure: 28.5 in-Hg, Air Temp: 90.5* F (Outside temperature in Phoenix was 115* F), Humidity: 27%, Altitude: 1100 ft; engine warmed to same CHT for each pull set, multiple pulls taken to confirm curves)
Jerry Hall is adding a little more information for those that may have trouble understanding the graphs and what effect the power valve closing has on the power curve.
Graph # 1
Pale green line is the result of the power valve (PV) being closed through the whole RPM range
Graph # 2
Wide Blue line is the result of the PV closing @ 6400 to 6500 RPM
Graph # 3
Wide Pink line is the result of the PV closing @ 7300 to 7500 RPM
Graph # 4
Wide Pink line is the result of the PV closing @ 7600 to 7800 RPM
Graph # 5
Wide Green line is the result of the Optimum setting where the PV closes @ 5750
I also have some graphs of some PV tuning on a LT250R Suzuki. I will try to post them in the next few days when I get them transferred from the dyno computer.
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mine works best at 1 1/8 turn
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"so long story short, Suzuki Engineers knew their stuff when the designed our power valve. In fact the owner of the company was very impressed with how Suzuki over engineered the spring"
Wish they spent more time on the transfer ports where it would of really counted
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The more you wind it the more it rips, right? (Y)
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Well, they didn't account for the guys that thought 10 more turns would give them more power...after all, it is a POWERvalve ::)
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READ THE F'N POST!!!!!
j/k At Jerry Hall's shop in AZ. Phoenix AZ.
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where did you have it dynoed at?
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Sweet, that verifies my butt dyno :D
It's also why I never understood the powervalve removal on drag racers...so what if you're not normally running below 6,000RPM, it makes sense that you'd want any and all available horsepower wherever it's at, right?
So long as it doesn't affect top end where you're normally running, it sure couldn't HURT anything by having a bit more power below the normal RPM range.
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I only ran the K&N with the stock carb, before the HRD build. I started with a Lectron 44 and a 4x8 Uni dual layer foam filter.
600 main was about ideal running China Wall last winter. 620 would not pull the hill in 4th, but 600 would. This was then F&L 111 w/Amsoil Dominator 40:1.
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Are you running a 640 main with the UNI? what main did you run with the K&N?
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Added more details to original post.
Thanks again for all the info and help Jerry!
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I think Im going to go back and double check where mine are set at!! :o
Thanks for the info!!
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Thanks for posting up! It's nice to see the differences, power curve wise when its adjusted differently!
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I had posted this information on a few sites, so I thought I would put it up here.
Alright, I've read all over about the power valve issue. Does it work? Does it make a difference? Any dyno hard results? etc., on and on.
Well I have some dyno charts for my setup and we specifically were playing around with the PV setting. From blocked off thru 1.75CC (counter clockwise).
The following charts are for a small reed Top end ,HPR#19, taper bored TM38, dune ported, open intake, VF2 reeds. The charts only show torque and I will not post Q vs HPR pipe HP numbers because those always get into pissing matches.
I just wanted to show that on the 500, the PV does impact your power curve. I've highlighted all curves since they are hard to read if I didn't.
FYI... I've heard and it makes sense to me that based on oil temp, the PV will open at different points. My test results for my engine seemed to like 1CC PV setting when running the Hall HPR#19.
These are Torque numbers only as I don't want these threads to start any HP wars.
PV blocked closed:
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PVDisabled.jpg)
PV set to 1.25CC (Q pipe recommended setting):
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV125.jpg)
PV set to 1.50CC:
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV150.jpg)
PV set to 1.75CC:
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV175.jpg)
PV set to stock 1.00CC (best for my bike):
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/rogue1970/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PV100.jpg)
So in short, if your a drag racer running only WO, then blocking it off closed won't impact top end RPM / Power.
If you do anything else, it can greatly impact your power below 6k RPM.... you can even screw up and set it to 1.75CC or more and it will kill your top end.
EDIT 10/16 - Adding run info.
These were all from Hall's dyno in Phoenix, AZ on June 27th, 2011.
My Setup:
500 Fanatic - HRD porting (HRD rebuild completed 8/2010), Ears re-inforced
Head - Squish fixed & o-ringed
Trans - M102
B8ES .020 gap plug w/5k plug cap
OEM stator, coil, ECU, stock timing
HPR#19 Pipe
VP110 w/927 @ 20:1
TM38 bored to 41mm carb w/640 main
Open Intake w/ 4x8 Uni Dual Layer w/Outerwear
Q cut piston
Vforce2 reeds
Dyno Info: (Dyno tires used, Absolute Pressure: 28.5 in-Hg, Air Temp: 90.5* F (Outside temperature in Phoenix was 115* F), Humidity: 27%, Altitude: 1100 ft; engine warmed to same CHT for each pull set, multiple pulls taken to confirm curves)