Suzuki Quadracer HQ
LT250R Quadracer => LT250R - Engine => Topic started by: Mitch Keller on September 30, 2012, 09:27:13 am
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10 passes on a built engine? That's ALOT of money.
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OMW has ds650 bored and stroked with nitrous around 150-160hp on nitrous.
How many passes does he get on a set of 160 hp 250R cases?
There is a local shop that builds a lot of turbo engines. He has brought me 2 sets of cases from his 125 hp 450 Hondas and and 3 sets of cases from his turbo 150+ hp Raptors wanting to know if I can save or strengthen them. All of the cases are split through the main bearing and transmission bearing pockets after about 10 passes.
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Was there a jump off the line ? Lol love to see the pics!
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6 inch flame coming out the stinger of the pipe. Waiting on him to find them...
Sweet!
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it wasnt a death rev for the Z. Just running on a nitro methane mix called Witches Brew. Uncle Kipp mixed it too hot that night, whooped the EFF out of these out of town punks, and then couldnt kill the bike because of how hot the fuel was burning. Uncle Chey had to put it in 4th and drop the clutch twice while standing on the rear brakes to make it stall out.
Uncle Kipp has pictures of it coming off the line that night with all 3 tires in the air and a 6 inch flame coming out the stinger of the pipe. Waiting on him to find them...
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Nothing worse than getting the "death rev" pull the plug cap and end up having to shift it into gear and ease out the clutch to kill it.Definitely make your heart race and wallet hurt if you,re unlucky.lol
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It'd be funny so see an LT converted into a three wheeler. I think it would look really odd
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Damn that's crazy ! Least it didn't rev to the moon. He still have this Tri z?
Yes I do ;D as well as the pipe. But not the same carb or top end :'( the last guy they tried selling it too wrecked it and busted the jug so it's got a "stock" (hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha) top end (FOR NOW HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA)
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my 500s done that running it 0n 93 octane when it was basically stock, I learned about needing higher octane fuel the hard way lol :P
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Damn that's crazy ! Least it didn't rev to the moon. He still have this Tri z?
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running like a diesel. wasnt lean running ( my suzuki did that once and scared the **** out of me..)
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Was it running wide open or just idling???
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If you're wanting just straight line power than go with a Yamaha Tri-Z. My uncle had theirs running LOW 4's with a fastest pass of 3.9 in 300'. Granted, it was a nitro engine (not nitrous, NITRO) and after the 3.9 run they couldn't shut it off.... Even after pulling the plug cap............... But still
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That is insane, I've never experienced a quad with so much power. The fastest I've been on was a banshee that had been worked on. It was fast, but I doubt it was as fast as a nitro 650. It just seems so wild.
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If this is the case why not just use the liger method chris seems to jave his bike runnong very well i think the motor could be built for other apps than just drag racing.
The Liger is bad a$$! But I also remember Piranha on the old site saying something about a 9 or 10 G price tag.
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That's ridiculous. Nitro ds650! What's next, drag lawn mowers? You guys are crazy! Lol
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OMW has ds650 bored and stroked with nitrous around 150-160hp on nitrous.
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GP Engineering has a single cylinder (sabertooth) two stroke on boost running 160hp and 90 lbs tq. Stock cases.
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If this is the case why not just use the liger method chris seems to jave his bike runnong very well i think the motor could be built for other apps than just drag racing.
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I doubt if there are 1000 to 1500 LT 500 still running in the world.
Wow. I would have guessed there would be more than that left. That is why I hate to see guys parting them out.
I would have guessed higher also but makes it that much sweeter if ya do own one.
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Ok, so a single cylinder might not ever have the HP numbers of a multi cylinder engine, but it sure will have the torque. And torque is what motivates me. ;D
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$2500 for a computer controlled powervalve cylinder for a zilla with the potential of 150+ HP? Where do I sign up?
You must be talking to someone that knows a lot more than anyone I know if they think they can get 150 HP from a 500 single cylinder. The 500 GP bikes are V 4 cylinder engines with electronics all over them.
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So far 90+ right now, right? Is there any way to hook up a device to the crank and spin it under measured loads till it breaks? Doesn't sound complicated right?
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How much can the bottom end even handle?
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Brian no kidding. I could clean out some parts and make some money. To build a 150hp motor
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$2500 for a computer controlled powervalve cylinder for a zilla with the potential of 150+ HP? Where do I sign up?
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I doubt if there are 1000 to 1500 LT 500 still running in the world.
Wow. I would have guessed there would be more than that left. That is why I hate to see guys parting them out.
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Jerry how many people/cylinders would you need to make custom 500 cylinders in the 1000-1500 range?
I would have to do a cost analysis at today’s tooling and casting cost before any accurate numbers could be done. At this point I would guess 300 to 400 cylinders.
I doubt if there are 1000 to 1500 LT 500 still running in the world. Of these 1500 I doubt if 100 of the owners would spend the money to buy a new top end, pipe, carb, ignition/power valve controller and get the Quad's mechanical condition up to the point where it would take the increased power for a while.
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Let have a show of hands from the guys that would be willing to pay 1000.00 to 1500.00 for a cylinder and head kit for a LT 250 or a LT500.
About $600 for porting, $280 for welded ears and decking and $200 for head mods... My hand is way up! O0 Gas power valves please.
You do not want a exhaust pressure activated power (pneumatic activated power valves) they are more inconsistent in their operation than Suzuki's mechanical method of activating the LT 250/500 exhaust valve.
If I were going to start with a clean sheet of paper, I would build a cylinder where the power valve was operated by a computer controlled stepper or servo motor. The 125cc, 250cc, and 500cc GP racing engines used the servo/stepper motor actuated power valves and was very successful for many years. The 500cc GP engines made in excess of 200 HP on gas and had a power band like a 4 stroke.
If we add this type of power valve technology to our new cylinder, now the $1000.00 to $1500.00 cylinder kit cost is around $2500.00.
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As for the 500's.. This is probably all conjecture anyway. Dont they start wearing out cranks and cases in a hurry when you are approaching the 90 hp mark?
The ware is accelerated everywhere on an engine that was designed to be reliable at 45 Hp stock and now the power is doubled even though it was considered a high performance engine stock.
Is the ware accelerated on the crank and engine block when a knowledgeable engine builder gets his hands on a stock 400 HP Corvette engine and turns it into a 800 HP NASCAR engine?
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Jerry how many people/cylinders would you need to make custom 500 cylinders in the 1000-1500 range?
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#2. 86' & 88'
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I would. Would need to do payments though.
Exactly lol
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I would. Would need to do payments though.
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Let have a show of hands from the guys that would be willing to pay 1000.00 to 1500.00 for a cylinder and head kit for a LT 250 or a LT500.
About $600 for porting, $280 for welded ears and decking and $200 for head mods... My hand is way up! O0 Gas power valves please.
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As for the 500's.. This is probably all conjecture anyway. Dont they start wearing out cranks and cases in a hurry when you are approaching the 90 hp mark?
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only 98 more to go
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I would as long as the new design eliminates most of the factors holding ours back from absolute domination! We should be taking over the world! P*
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Depends on the power output potential and reliability.
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i'd pay 1000-1500 for a new designed jug and head. <1>
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Oh what size LT500 jug? 650cc- 685cc, heck Im in!!
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Let have a show of hands from the guys that would be willing to pay 1000.00 to 1500.00 for a cylinder and head kit for a LT 250 or a LT500.
<crickets chirping here>
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What about designing a new top end from scratch. Head, cyclinder, etc? Do you have to be a physicist to create it? I'm no super mechanic, and I don't know that much about engine dynamics. However some of the things these builders say on here, make me think they probably could. That's my 2c
The molds and core boxes for manufacturing are very expensive. Loren Duncan said that it cost him almost 100Kby the time his 250 Honda cylinders were ready for market. First iteration molds are typically around $30.000. Testing for reliability and power should be a priority of a company that produces after market products. Many design refinements and modifications and or new molds are usually required before you have something you want to sell the public. I think that most of the aftermarket companies do not do sufficient testing before releasing their cylinders and cases for sale to the public. Ask Eddie Sanders about the problems that are surfacing with their new Honda cases and cylinder kits. Look at the new prices of the ESR engine cases, they have almost doubled. Look at the new prices of the new ESR cylinder kits. I think that he is having to pass on the cost of more testing and refinement that should have been done before putting these items up for sale and or the market is not as large as he anticipated.
The tooling cost has to be factored into the cost of each retail item. If there is market for only 100 cylinders and tooling cost is 100K, then 1000.00 has to be added to the manufacturing cost of each cylinder. If there is market for 1000 cylinders and tooling cost is 100K, then 100.00 has to be added to the manufacturing cost of each cylinder.
Let have a show of hands from the guys that would be willing to pay 1000.00 to 1500.00 for a cylinder and head kit for a LT 250 or a LT500.
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When these things came out, it really seems like it was the muscle car era of quads. New types of engines, bigger engines. The reason I don't really want to do a hybrid is because I wanted an LT250R. Not a half honda-half Zuki 250 frame with a 500 engine in it. Or whatever combination you want. It's like buying a classic muscle car and throwing on the front end off a different car and a motor from another car in it. It started out as a muscle car, but now it doesn't look like it, doesn't sound like it and doesn't drive like a muscle car. It may "handle better" or be "faster", but its not a muscle car anymore. I'm not putting anybody's quads down. Most likely if you built a hybrid, I bet your stuff runs better than either of mine ever have. It's just not what I want. Unless its an insane hybrid, with a jet engine or something lol
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Reason, Cost , the cost to design the top end, then the mold cost, think there is just too much out of pocket cost, say easy to spend 15k to just get started, then ask the questions, how many would iI be able to sell? Will the cost be too high for the average wallet? I am guessing easy $1250 $1500 for 320- 330 kit, then cost of machining, and having rods made for the kit, then the testing of the top end to see how it works, then the cost of fixing any defects, you guys complain on the cost of a LT500 pipe, think your money ahead to stick a lt500 engine in a 250 frame or 450 frame, than trying to rebuild the wheel.
Still think if one of you guys got it together on the 450 frame hybrids you see more jump ship in that direction, newer geometry, more plastic choices, many a arms and shock components available, plus it would be light weight bas azz toy.
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What about designing a new top end from scratch. Head, cyclinder, etc? Do you have to be a physicist to create it? I'm no super mechanic, and I don't know that much about engine dynamics. However some of the things these builders say on here, make me think they probably could. That's my 2c
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Mostly the aftermarket. But the stock cylinder layout severly limits what can be done. And lastly money you can build a Honda for 1/3 the cost of a Suzuki just because of the aftermarket support. Everything we do is semi unique, We use as many off the shelf parts as we can. Ive even gone so far as to try other cylinders for the 250 but its so much work its not worth the aggrivation.
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What makes the Hondas tough to beat with the LT?Better aftermarket???Engine design?
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Trying to go out today or Sunday, the LT250 in the deal is a 85, what the hey can we do to that? is it worth it? the 87 LT500 seems to be the deal.
Plus I am waiting for some el casho dernaro to arrive today.
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So you get em and when you sending the 250 engine to me.
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Joe says that your 250's scream, and I believe him. See what happens, sent you the links on the Quads I am looking at.
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Always Easier to just do a 500 IT will net you more power in the end. But for Guys who want to get it done on a "250" this also works.
Real Question is will It make more power than a Honda, nope I dont think so. But I will get it close enough that the Driver/ setup can make the Difference and not be completly out gunned and over matched. Ive been working on it for a long time and finally realize theres only one way to correctly make it work.
I have a personal stake in this engine, I need it to be able to run down 310 and 330 Hondas on the Ice. This is one Reason Ive taken so much time to get the components to work together. I have tweaked on my 250 untill theres no more left on the table. I had the straight away speed but need more off the turns.
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I have a setup for the 250 that should make it really run. The Bigbore is done and in Gilles bike, his is a 285 and can go to a 301.
I am working on a stroked big bore that should make for a more mild power curve. Its in the final stage of R&D. Stroking a 250 creates some issues that need to be adressed I have been working on this when I get time for over a year to get it rite. When I get it all done It will start as a 293 or 301.
Carl, what year model for these kits, looking for 87 and up? Or is just easier to just get Jr a another LT500 for the money?
We found a 91 LT250r / waiting on someone with a 87-LT500 and 85-LT250 for sale
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I have a setup for the 250 that should make it really run. The Bigbore is done and in Gilles bike, his is a 285 and can go to a 301.
I am working on a stroked big bore that should make for a more mild power curve. Its in the final stage of R&D. Stroking a 250 creates some issues that need to be adressed I have been working on this when I get time for over a year to get it rite. When I get it all done It will start as a 293 or 301.
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i think the lt250 is under rated bc you dont see to many and the few that i see arent well built and can barely hang with a stock 450 4 stroke. they can be built to make some good hp and i agree with ice racer, big carb, v force reeds, shearer pipe will run really good.
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Roach, yer 250 WILL run with a TRX310R....mine does! Literally dead even thru the gears to around 3/4 the way thru 5th gear. Where we were, the small hills down the right side of L.S. once you get thru the gate out of south camp, we ran into traffic n had to shutdown.....a buddy of mine here in OKC has CT on the side of his jug, I asked him about it, he told me it was a CT310 setup. After we ran, I felt REALLY good about my lil 250 with some Bartlett porting, Sheared Pipe, 39pwk, rad valve with a Uni filter!!
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you want good or the best? Best Shearer pipe, Vforce reeds and a TM 38 or pwk 39 carb. good Paul turner pipe same reeds and carb s
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What's a good motor combo to put on a 250? Pipe, reeds,carb etc..
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I want to do another LT250. I miss my 87 that I had. The Zilla is awesome but it is a brutal beast. I loved the zip of a strong 250.
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my 92 is done by carl. i still need to fine tune it but its running close to the 250r's
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I have 2 big bore 250 engines. The first one I had Trinity do way back when. It was quick but nothing compared to The new one Carl (iceracer) built. Its 285cc with a sleeve thick enough to be punch out to around 310. Id go more into whats going on inside of it, But I'll leave that to Carl.
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I bought my 88 from a guy in Lake Havasu City for $400, trailer included. Ya, it needed some work but just minor stuff. I've noticed that in this area, the older 2 stroke stuff is getting more affordable with the growing popularity of the newer 4 stroke bikes.
MHR & Iceracer are two very good builders. FTZ has been advertising their work on the Quadracer for a few years now also. Hopefully as soon as I can get my finances back on track, I will be helping HPR with his continued 250 development as well.
I don't want to leave anybody out so if there are other good quadracer engine builders out there, please let us know.
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As far as i know, Matt (MHR) is the only one doing a 310 kit. LRD used to do them back in the day and im sure he would do one again for the right price.
LT250r's are under rated. They can be built up to make good power comparable to a trx. Front clips can be changed to handle as good as a new bike. They are everywhere and you can find them at a low price. 87-92, are the years you want, avoid the 85-86 as the aftermarket parts just arent there.
My .02
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Seeing some really nice deals on the LT250R what the best years to look for? who is making reliable Big Bore Kits 310- 330cc