Both long reads but good, first is the cpsc decree
http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia07/pubcom/atv2006_3.pdfPosted by: MIA450R
In another post, someone made the comment of not understanding why Yamaha didnt stop making the Banshee in the 80's....and in replying, I decided to make a new post so everyone would know why our sport is making a 'comeback' after a near 15 year slump. Feel free to add to the story and or correct me where I may have made a mistake........
Back in the 80's many kids (under 16) were getting seriously hurt or killed by riding adult ATC's and ATV's. As a result, around 1988/89, the US gov't/CSPC forced ATV manufacturers to stop selling 3-wheelers, and to stop putting R&D into producing newer, faster quads...for 10 years. However, none of the manufacturers HAD to stop making high-performance 2-stroke quads.
Honda CHOSE to drop out of the business, as in their view, their company/name was getting a massive black eye from being the top selling ATC/ATV manufacturer that was causing all these kids to have fatal or near fatal injuries. They stopped making racing quads, and eliminated their sponsorship for racing ATVs. They did not want the Honda name tarnished by one of their products.
Shortly after Honda stopped making the 250R (and killed the design of the 500R), the industry follows big red: Kawie stopped making the Tecate4 (250) and Suzi stopped making the Quadzilla (500) and the LT250R.
Only Yamaha CHOSE to stick it out, with the Banshee (and the Blaster). Granted, Yammie did as they were told, and stopped putting any R&D into the 'Shee...and thus why though the 80's and into the 90's all quads received for upgrades were "revised graphics" ... and why the 'Shee never got a decent airbox!
Fast forward (through the painful drought) to 1998/99. The 10-year R&D "ban" is over. Honda knows there is serious money to be made in sport ATVing, and cautiously CHOOSES to get back into "high-performance" ATVing by coming out with the 400EX. We all know how amazingly successful that move was. Although the 400EX was far from 250R performance levels...it was still a major leap forward from the 300EX's, Warriors and Mojaves that we all had to accept as "high performance."
Shortly after the 400EX, we got the DS650, Cannondale quads, Raptor and Z400's, etc etc. Life was good.
Fast forward again to today. Yamaha takes the bull by the horns and releases the no-compromise YFZ450. Right on their heels, Honda comes out with the TRX450R. The industry/sport has come full circle. We are (FINALLY) almost back where we were in 1989.
However, everyone, us, the manufacturers, etc....need to make sure we don't allow a repeat of what happened in the 80's, or our sport will be history...and won't return.
I say:
Hats off to Yamaha for sticking through it the whole way, and also to Honda for (if ever so cautiously) not completely giving up on our beloved sport, and creating the 400EX spark that relit the flame. Yamaha and Honda both make serious quads, in completely different ways...one through no compromising performance, and one through bulletproof reliability combined with top-shelf power.
I ride red. Period. The 450R will be my 3rd brand brand new Honda ATV. I look forward to the day I get to race it against a Yammie 450 or a Suzi 450 or a Kawie 450...whether I win or not, I *GUARANTEE* I'll still have a smile on my face...
Posted by: 2004TRX450R
Well this isn't completely accurate. The government DIDN'T stop the sale of threewheelers. They were going to ban all ATVs includeing 4wheelers. Then the manufacturers came to an agreement voluntarily to stop bringing threewheelers into the country IF they could still sell 4 wheelers. They came to the agreement for obvious reasons as the ATV market is far bigger the the motorcycle market includedin off and on rode motorcycles. There was no forceing to stop development either. The companies are based in Japan so the US government can only say what they can and can't bring into the country. NOT what they can and can't develop. This agreement came about '86 and took effect in '87. There are a few '87 threewheelers out there but they were only available in other countries. Three years later in '89 Honda finally stopped productino of the TRX250R due to getting hit so hard with law suits in the previous years. They are by fart he biggest manufacturer of ATVs and motorcycles so they have the deepest pockets and lawyers know that so they hit them hard. I think Yamaha probably kept the Banshee in production as they saw an obvious market for them to sell LOTs of them as they were the only high performance ATV left. Honda finally came out with the TRX400EX probably more for the reason of trying to get a portion of the market back from Yamaha and shortly after that other manufacturers started following suit as it was starting to take off again. I remember reading somewhere in a mag. that Honda come to the states and checked out some ATV raceing and was amazed about the number of TRX250Rs there were dominateing the circuits and wanted to get back into it. Now they finally have with signing a facotry rider and sponsoring a race team. I just can't wait until the hit the showrooms as I'm getting one!
Posted by: Greg Z
what does R&D mean?
Posted by: Taco
Research and Development
Posted by: Hammer trx450r
research and development
Posted by: TGW_400ex
quote:Originally posted by MIA416EX
In another post, someone made the comment of not understanding why Yamaha didnt stop making the Banshee in the 80's....and in replying, I decided to make a new post so everyone would know why our sport is making a 'comeback' after a near 15 year slump. Feel free to add to the story and or correct me where I may have made a mistake........
Back in the 80's many kids (under 16) were getting seriously hurt or killed by riding adult ATC's and ATV's. As a result, around 1988/89, the US gov't/CSPC forced ATV manufacturers to stop selling 3-wheelers, and to stop putting R&D into producing newer, faster quads...for 10 years. However, none of the manufacturers HAD to stop making high-performance 2-stroke quads.
Honda CHOSE to drop out of the business, as in their view, their company/name was getting a massive black eye from being the top selling ATC/ATV manufacturer that was causing all these kids to have fatal or near fatal injuries. They stopped making racing quads, and eliminated their sponsorship for racing ATVs. They did not want the Honda name tarnished by one of their products.
Shortly after Honda stopped making the 250R (and killed the design of the 500R), the industry follows big red: Kawie stopped making the Tecate4 (250) and Suzi stopped making the Quadzilla (500) and the LT250R.
Only Yamaha CHOSE to stick it out, with the Banshee (and the Blaster). Granted, Yammie did as they were told, and stopped putting any R&D into the 'Shee...and thus why though the 80's and into the 90's all quads received for upgrades were "revised graphics" ... and why the 'Shee never got a decent airbox!
Fast forward (through the painful drought) to 1998/99. The 10-year R&D "ban" is over. Honda knows there is serious money to be made in sport ATVing, and cautiously CHOOSES to get back into "high-performance" ATVing by coming out with the 400EX. We all know how amazingly successful that move was. Although the 400EX was far from 250R performance levels...it was still a major leap forward from the 300EX's, Warriors and Mojaves that we all had to accept as "high performance."
Shortly after the 400EX, we got the DS650, Cannondale quads, Raptor and Z400's, etc etc. Life was good.
Fast forward again to today. Yamaha takes the bull by the horns and releases the no-compromise YFZ450. Right on their heels, Honda comes out with the TRX450R. The industry/sport has come full circle. We are (FINALLY) almost back where we were in 1989.
However, everyone, us, the manufacturers, etc....need to make sure we don't allow a repeat of what happened in the 80's, or our sport will be history...and won't return.
I say:
Hats off to Yamaha for sticking through it the whole way, and also to Honda for (if ever so cautiously) not completely giving up on our beloved sport, and creating the 400EX spark that relit the flame. Yamaha and Honda both make serious quads, in completely different ways...one through no compromising performance, and one through bulletproof reliability combined with top-shelf power.
I ride red. Period. The 450R will be my 3rd brand brand new Honda ATV. I look forward to the day I get to race it against a Yammie 450 or a Suzi 450 or a Kawie 450...whether I win or not, I *GUARANTEE* I'll still have a smile on my face....
That person that asked about why the Banshee is still made was me
Posted by: ATC83
quote:Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
There are a few '87 threewheelers out there but they were only available in other countries.
You are wrong about the 1987 three wheelers. I can remember sitting on a 1987 Honda ATC 200X at the Honda dealer in Moose Lake Minnesota and I still have the brochure that I got for the bike. If you want I can scane it for you and post the image. The 1987 ATC200X has a key on it and the plastic was all white including the air scopes. They also made the ATC125M that year.
Posted by: 2004TRX450R
interesting. I wonder if it was in late '96 that you saw it there and Jan 1, 87 they had to pull them off the floor or not sell them or something. I knew they made them but I thought they weren't allowed to sell them in the US.
Posted by: 86atc250r
There's a few things I don't agree with (please don't take this as criticism, only a view of the events & details from different eyes) -
Back in the 80's many kids (under 16) were getting seriously hurt or killed by riding adult ATC's and ATV's.
This statement in itself is true, but the numbers of injuries and deaths were actually very small & I would put them up against bicycles, skateboards, or heck, even walking, any day...
The thing that really kicked off the anti ATV movment was the Barbra Walters special that made ATVs look dangerous and riders appear to be irresponsible idiots. I remember various footage from that "special" vividly & it still makes me mad.
Couple that with the fact that the ATV market was still fairly new and the bulk of "urban" America hadn't ridden one to make an educated decision for themselves on the safety factor.
As a result, around 1988/89, the US gov't/CSPC forced ATV manufacturers to stop selling 3-wheelers, and to stop putting R&D into producing newer, faster quads...for 10 years.
The consent decree was a voluntary agreement between the CPSC and the Manufacturers - they weren't forced to quit manufacturing 3-wheelers, they voluntarily agreed to. There's quite a bit of info on the actual details on the CPSC's website. I don't remember seeing anything about restricting development when I read it over, but it's been a while ago...
Honda CHOSE to drop out of the business, as in their view, their company/name was getting a massive black eye from being the top selling ATC/ATV manufacturer that was causing all these kids to have fatal or near fatal injuries.
This is true, but only part of the story - the main reason Honda was the first to get "out of the business" is because lawyers "follow the money", and Honda has the money. Attacking Honda, being by far the largest manufacturer & having the deepest pockets makes a lot of sense if you think like a trial lawyer.
You've also got to remember that sport/high performance ATV sales practically died after the Barbra Walters special (also remember what happened to quad prices between 1986 and 1989?).
Granted, Yammie did as they were told, and stopped putting any R&D into the 'Shee...and thus why though the 80's and into the 90's all quads received for upgrades were "revised graphics" ... and why the 'Shee never got a decent airbox!
Not sure I agree with this from what I've read about the consent decree. Not putting R&D into the quads also equals not trying to make them safer, which works against what the CPSC was trying to accomplish.
In my opinion, the Yamaha sport quads didn't receive updates because they didn't have competition & were making Yamaha boat loads of money without spending any capital on updates/changes.
Although the 400EX was far from 250R performance levels
I disagree with this also - stock 250R's were VERY similar in performance to stock 400EX's. Everyone forgets the aftermarket race bred R's running around right now don't really resemble a stock 250R much at all. However, the 250R does make for a better platform for a race quad once modified, due mainly to it's weight and the relative ease to extract power.
Fast forward again to today. Yamaha takes the bull by the horns and releases the no-compromise YFZ450. Right on their heels, Honda comes out with the TRX450R. The industry/sport has come full circle. We are (FINALLY) almost back where we were in 1989.
I disagree with this as well. Cannondales, YFZ450's, Predators, and TRX450R's (stock for stock) are leaps and bounds ahead of the Tecate, 250R, and LT250R's.
The performance quads of yesterday (with the exception of the 250R) handled so poorly that if raced against 400EX or LTZ400 in anything but a drag, would be at a serious disadvantage against the newer machines --- yet alone a YFZ or TRX450R.
Posted by: ELANSS
I owned a 1987 white atc200x. It actually said 1987 on the id plate. Wish I would have kept it.
Posted by: BigAl
Know I see why they let you hang around in here Gabe.
Except for the obvious Honda bias. <wink wink...nudge nudge>
Seriously though that is good info to get out to the younger generation in here that might not know the real story.
There were several '87 models that were sold in the fall of '86.
A friend has an '87 250SX.
An '87 model 200X in decent shape is worth pretty good money around here. They had an updated engine, and several good upgrades from the previous models.
Ironically, I just bought my first Yamaha since my '86 225DX.
I sure hope this trip to Yamaha land turns out better than the last one did.
Posted by: wilkin250r
I would have gone on a rant, but as usual, Gabe beat me to it, so I'll just back up what he said.
The ban on 3-wheelers was voluntary.
I don't recall anything about a "ban" on R&D. And as it has been pointed out, I don't think U.S. law can dictate the R&D for companies in Japan. Most everybody jumped out of the market because the public opinion was that ATVs were "dangerous" and nobody wanted the liability. Personally, I'm amazed that Yamaha stuck with it.
Posted by: TC17
*with a tear in my eye*, that's how it is. i never really thought of it in that way. the only difference is having a smile on my face is a yammy 450 beats my Honda 450 this 450R will be my...4th brand new honda ATV and i'm looking forward to it big time! i have had the 90, the 250, the 300, the 400, and now the 450. i took it step by step to the big level and can't wait. ATV's are goin to get BIG in the next ten years. all of us young riders with potentials need to stick with it becasue in 10 years i bet that a Pro ATV racer will have enough money to live off of if not be a celebrity like PRO bike racers.
Posted by: 2004TRX450R
86ATC, I pretty much agree with everything you said. It was pretty much along the same lines as what I was getting at.
I knew three were several '87 modles includeing the 200X but personally I haven't seen any. I'm pretty sure you could only get them in other countries after 1/1/87 though.
Posted by: trx440
We bought an 87 Tecate3 with a tax return check in 88.
Posted by: cinigen9
I think voluntary in this context meant "or else".
I remember seeing alot of "new" 350x engines show up in the years to follow. I have heard stories of truck loads of atc's being cut up and the engines sent to vo-tech schools. Every now and then you will see one show up on ebay that is taped off like it has been in storage for years.
Posted by: 86atc250r
They could volunteer and shut down the lawsuits or fight.... Given all the bad press and public turning against them, volunteering to stop production on their own was the best option out for them...
BTW, I have one of those Vo-tech engines that I bought several years ago for $200
Posted by: cinigen9
I see what you are saying..
havent look into it for years, but I understood it to be more of a "stop selling atcs OR ELSE we will fight you on all quads" from Nader and friends
stopping sales sure doesnt stop lawsuits.. if anything it fuels the "you admit they were a bad design" claim..
either way, I am glad we are back to where we are today - many options! Now we just have to come up with more places to ride them and take responsibility to insure that riders are trained properly, are on the right sized machine, and wear protective gear so that we dont see a repeat of the 80's.
Posted by: 2004TRX450R
quote:Originally posted by trx440
We bought an 87 Tecate3 with a tax return check in 88.
In Mexico or used?
Posted by: ATC83
quote:Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
86ATC, I pretty much agree with everything you said. It was pretty much along the same lines as what I was getting at.
I knew three were several '87 modles includeing the 200X but personally I haven't seen any. I'm pretty sure you could only get them in other countries after 1/1/87 though.
You may be right that the three wheelers may have been pulled of the show room floors at some point during the model year of 1987. I do remeber sitting on one at the dealer and I still have the brochure. I have the Honda brochures for all of Hondas ATVs for 1983 through 1987. I have been a Honda nut ever since I was a kid. I collect honda three wheelers and I have been looking for a 1987 ATC200X. I have only come across one 1987 ATC200X for sale but it was in such bad condition it wasn't worth buying.
Posted by: 86atc250r
stopping sales sure doesnt stop lawsuits.. if anything it fuels the "you admit they were a bad design" claim..
That sounds logical - except I remember something about provisions in the agreement giving them some protection from lawsuits - probably not civil, but from the Govt if nothing else. Seems the agreement was sort of a "we're not admitting there was any bad design, but we're going to stop production on our own free will".
Been too long since I read over the details.
In my opinion, 3 wheelers were a fine design - nothing inherently wrong with them. Yes, they are not as stable as a quad, but dirbikes are not as stable as 3-wheelers --- so does that make a dirtbike a "Dangerous" design?
It's kinda like silicon breast implants --- the press had nothing better to do & made a huge deal about something that was conjecture, the govt and general public over-reacted to the press & the witch hunt was on....
Posted by: MIA450R
Well said, 86atc250r/gabe...
You elaborated well on the basic points that I made, by going into detail on some of them, but you also mentioned a couple new things. I wanted to get this post going just so that everyone knew the whole story.
The most important message to this thread is knowledge. Knowledge of what caused our sport to die back in the late '80s, and knowledge of what we all need to do to keep it from dying again: Keep our sport viewed as a favorable thing to the general public. As soon as the Barbara Walters and Americas Funniest Home Videos of the world get a hold of footage of a bunch of drunk donkeys riding around on ATVs with no shirts and no helmets, we're ALL toast. It doesn't matter that the actual number of ATV injuries/deaths is less than that of bicycle or skateboarding accidents...its the media getting hold of videos of the donkeys out there that can eventually ruin it for the rest of us.
Honda especially (thanks to its lawyers, and all the lawsuits against them in the 80s) knows how important it is that the general public understands that safety is of utmost importance with ATVing, and this is accomplished by educating the public about the dangers of ATVing. Just because the thing has 4 wheels doesnt mean its safe!!
Case in point:
When I moved into my neighborhood 6 years ago, all my neighbors turned their noses up at my quad....I could sense it. It was an annoyance to them, and they hated that all their kids LOVED watching me ride, and constantly asked me to take them for rides. Well, today, 5 of my neighbors own quads! Why? Because it can be good safe fun. I always ride with a helmet, and I never, ever take the kids for rides unless they have a helmet and good shoes on. It is fun, but it MUST be respected.
Here's the point I'm making though: my (bullheaded) next door neighbor just HAD to get a 400EX, like me, and wouldn't listen when I told him a 300EX might be a better first quad (he had NEVER ridden). Then, I offered several times to teach him how to ride properly...but he never took me up on it...he knows everything. Anyways, on his 3rd or 4th ride, he and I were giving kids rides, and as he was following me down a small off camber downhill slope, he rolled the quad over onto him and his son. Thankfully they both had helmets, and neither were hurt...but had he taken me up on the "lesson," he would have been prepared on how to handle the quad properly in that situation. Shortly thereafter, he sold it...I knew dang well that it scared the crap out of him.
Anyways, yes, our sport has made serious progress in many different ways...but the most important place it needs to make progress is how it is viewed in the public eye. We ALL need to improve that image...
BTW....check out the cool articles in this months 4-Wheel Action. Has a cool timeline of their magazine, and kind of a history of the sport too.
Posted by: yamblaster200
3 wheelers were made through '87, however for the 87 model year most models were dropped from the lineup. The consent decree was signed on jan 11 1988. All left over 87 models were destroyed and i don't believe they had planned to make 88 models anyway. Part of the consent decree was that they could not introduce any new high performance models, said nothing about improving on existing models. The tecate was the first to go, then the 250r then the quadzilla then the quadracer.
Posted by: 2004TRX450R
quote:Originally posted by yamblaster200
Part of the consent decree was that they could not introduce any new high performance models,
OK I haven't personally read the consent decree but if that was the case the Banshee wouldn't be around anymore either. I think it was more from lawsuits and dieing sales at the time.
Posted by: HRC450R
quote:Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
There are a few '87 threewheelers out there but they were only available in other countries.
That's not true at all. The 87 Tecate was in Kawasaki dealers all over the USA.
Posted by: trx440
quote:Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
In Mexico or used?
Remanufactured with a Briggs and Stratton engine in the former Soviet Republic of Kazakstan.
or was it :
New 87 Tecate3 purchased FEB-88 in South Haven, Indiana at Thomas Kawasaki.
Posted by: alias
I got an engine from one of those bad boys last year, 85 ATC black engine.. . never ran before untill I broke it in on a restored TRX chassis.
For me it was awesome to start with a new R engine.. so fresh & crisP.
Posted by: wilkin250r
quote:Originally posted by 2004TRX450R
OK I haven't personally read the consent decree but if that was the case the Banshee wouldn't be around anymore either. I think it was more from lawsuits and dieing sales at the time.
The banshee wasn't a new model.
Posted by: eddings
The real problem is letting special interest groups decide what is safe and what isn't for us. People don't ban cars because parents leave their kids in and they die of a heat stroke. People need to take responsibility for their own actions not have the govenment do it for us. If I'm not mistaken ATV's were way down on the list compared to injuries from most school sponsered sports. Even when taking in to account the numbers participating in each activity. I could go on for hours, but I won't
Thats my .02 worth.
Posted by: 86atc250r
Exactly... And one of the biggest special interest groups against us (using the "ATVs are Dangerous" claims to their favor) is the environazis.
Organizations like the Sierra Club, the Bluewater network, Friends of the Earth, Center for Biological Diversity, and other such nut groups.....
Here's a link to some others:
http://www.angelfire.com/mn3/arrowh...ub/antiatv.htmlAlso keep in mind that pediatrician and other medical groups keep statistics on ATV injuries that are often used against us. There are several medical "groups" that have been trying to get ATVs banned for a good long while - I seriously question their motives - if they really wanted to make a difference, there are countless other activities they could target that would make a MUCH larger dent in the population's injury/death rates.
Posted by: ATC83
In my opinion, if you are an adult and you want to ride something that is dangerouse it shouldn't be anybodies business but your own. I just don't understand why all of these groups are trying to ban ATVs. I can understand the ban on ATVs for children but I never could understand why they stoped making performance ATVs for adults. I we are going to ban everthing that is dangerouse, than none of us could use chainsaws, or even drive cars. Those both kill and mame people every year.
Posted by: VIC
quote:Originally posted by ATC83
In my opinion, if you are an adult and you want to ride something that is dangerouse it shouldn't be anybodies business but your own. I just don't understand why all of these groups are trying to ban ATVs. I can understand the ban on ATVs for children but I never could understand why they stoped making performance ATVs for adults. I we are going to ban everthing that is dangerouse, than none of us could use chainsaws, or even drive cars. Those both kill and mame people every year.
Thats true the only problem is that some people if they carsh or get hurt put the blame on the manufacturers and look to sue them, the times I have flipped/carsh its been my fualt nothing to do with the quad. They should have people sign a waiver saying they can't sue for their stupidity.
